I managed to find myself engaged in an argument about gay people, Christianity and the Bible with a(n internet) friend on FB a couple of days ago. Some of you may remember her and I'll not name her but won't stop anyone else from doing so, as there were witnesses to this debacle. Basically, it all began with a Chick Fil A comment and I was trying to explain how the Bible really, truly doesn't speak against homosexuality and that, in fact, same-sex marriage was recognize by the Christian church until around Roman times. That didn't go over well with this person and her gaggle of Bible-thumping-without-really understanding-the-Bible friends and I found myself unfriended. Lol, no loss on that, as I'd already realized, but what I also realized is that a lot of people don't really know their Bible, yet they love to toss Bible verses out as proof of their...ignorance. So, we're going to have a long, boring church sermon today, but one with a gay agenda *eyebrow wiggle*. The nice part is, unlike real church where you're forced to sit and listen to the long-winded pastor, you don't have to click the links here if you don't want to. But...but...if you find yourself with some free time, at least skim he Letter To Louise and Six Points. It'll make God happy if you do. Jesus, too.
http://www.godmademegay.com/
Yeah, it's a stupid name. Just deal.
119 comments:
Well, I will be the first to post. I am not well-versed in "Bible Talk", and I do question it a lot, a lot (religion as a business vs. religion/having faith) so there's that.
I did follow that certain FB tizzy. It was very interesting and surprising to me that such a (allegedly) open minded and thought provoking certain someone clearly lost it on this topic.
I found it amusing that, when the discussion was not clearly going her way, the whole thing was deleted. So much for debate. Surely the offending (in regards to her sister) comments could've just been deleted, but she chose to delete the whole discussion, which pretty much validates to me that she couldn't handle it. Friends were unfriended, lies told (no one was inboxed post discussion, were they? I thought not).
So, that's my take.
My friend posted a thing on facebook that to me is simply perfect
"Dont judge someone just because they sin differently then you"
Seriously I just dont get it because people really make up their own rules when it comes to what the Bible says. People say that there are no degrees to sins...no sin is worse then another...however they behave like being homosexual is the worst possible sin that anyone could ever commit.
What about lying? What about exaggerating ones situation, ie health? What about being ugly to those around you? What about judging others? What about eating meat on Friday?
Seriously why is it that homosexuality in so many people's minds is worse then say murder? Because if you want me to I can certainly start busting out some sin listed in the bible and guess what???? You are a sinner too and not better then the homosexual.
FYI I am really glad Chic Fil A isnt here.
And the whole I can be friends with you if you're gay because of the "love the sinner, hate the sin" loophole? Do they not get how condescending that is? You're my token sinner gay charity case friend, Lisa. ::pat, pat:: I got unfriended and then blocked because she announed the conversation was *over. Ah well. I'll wonder what the birdies are up to, I suppose. Or not.
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Oh yes I do love that one Robin!! Seriously do you get brownie points because for loving the sinners?
this is some seriously well written stuff. my lil sis and i, and my husband also, we talk about this. trying to untangle it all.
demeaning is the small of it. it's another root of the holy wars, the beam in the eye, the implicit idea that God made someone else better than another.
"the implicit idea that God made someone else better than another."
This.
TWG, yes. That whole thing with the sliver in my eye while ignoring the beam in yours....me being better then you. All of that really is what to me shows that too often people view it as more of a competition instead of a personal experience and relationship.
Rhys, it *is well-written, isn't it? I've found much the same information here and there, scattered, over the years and had a lot of it pieced together myself but finding this in a whole letter was a lovely thing to read. I was especially interested in the background of the author, too...a biblical scholar with strong Baptist roots. Even the most conservative people would have to give that one a second thought, I'd think. Or hope. Anyway, I was afraid it might be a little dry and I'm awfully glad some are finding it a good read, too. :-)
The whole "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing kills me. Probably more than any of the rest of it, that just sets me off. I mean, who even thinks this in regard to people you really care about and choose to have as friends in your life? And if you truly believe we're *all sinners, then how can this even be relevant? Robin obviously was the recipient of my bitching about the condescension implied in that special gem of a phrase.
Deb, what got me was that Karen (where are you, Karen???) and I were called abominations, sinners, told Satan had his grip on us and all that was apparently acceptable...btu let me call someone's sister rude for her antics and bam! I'm unfriended. It's not that I mind being unfriended, either. It's that I wasn't done talking!!
The other thing that killed me was having someone mention Leviticus as backing up that homosexuality is a sin and I explained how, per the Bible itself, that's not what it is about. Then someone else would say, "What about Leviticus???" to me and I'd explain again. Over and over. Then when I'd ask where in the Bible it speaks against homosexuality, all this being the case, I'd be told "Leviticus". Gah!
"All of that really is what to me shows that too often people view it as more of a competition instead of a personal experience and relationship."
Ahhhh, now *that? Is perfectly said.
Isn't this Chick-fil-a stuff old news? It comes around about every 6 months, and why does this cause so much of a bigger stir than the whole Salvation Army thing?
Ugh, total pregnancy brain. It took me a full day to figure out who/what you were talking about. I missed the whole thing, but saw the original post.
Funny how people like to trot out Leviticus when talking about homosexuality but conveniently forget all the other teachings/laws in it.
Let's look at some ways Nameless, Faceless Mennonite (NFM) does not conform to her loudly-voiced "beliefs:"
"Over the years, Mennonites have become known as one of the historic peace churches because of their commitment to nonviolence." SEE: "little sister don't miss when she aims her gun," and other statements she's made about revenge.
"Mennonite beliefs and practices vary widely, but following Jesus in daily life is a central value, along with PEACEMAKING." SEE: deleting those who disagree and then lying about it, talking about people who cannot defend themselves.
"As communities in God’s mission, we will strengthen the organic nature of the body of Christ and enhance our witness through worshipping together, extending hospitality, practicing scriptural discernment, cultivating Christcentered unity and LEARNING TO AGREE AND DISAGREE IN LOVE." SEE: second point.
"Racism, antipathy and alienation between different cultural groups stand in the way of Christ’s kingdom of love, justice and peace...we will seek to dismantle individual and systemic racism in our church, develop intercultural competence, heal racial divisions, and value all the gifts of God’s diverse people...The unity of Christ’s church is hindered when any particular communion remains disengaged and isolated from others who belong to the same Body of Christ. In a world of global economic disparity and vast cultural differences, our unity in the church bears witness to an alternate reality where we feel each other’s pain and rejoice when others rejoice." SEE: Rejection and judgement of the LGBT community.
"Service is an important part of the lives of Mennonites. They believe that Jesus Christ calls us to serve others in love as he did. Jesus gave the example for this service. Also, Mennonites believe that following Jesus means living a life that is devoted to serving others. While faith alone (God's grace) is enough to bring us into right relationship with God, the Bible goes on to say, "What good is it if you have faith but no deeds? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith, by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead"(James 2:14-17). One could say that having recienced God's wonderful grace and forgiveness, Christians can't help serving others." SEE: someone who contributes ZERO to society. Plenty of "disabled" people (tongue in cheek here) acontribute to society in meaningful ways. If Stephen Hawking can contribute, why can't she make phone calls on behalf of a charity?
"Conservative Christian groups generally teach that same-sex behavior is abnormal, unnatural, and hated by God. Further, most regard homosexual and bisexual sexual orientation to be chosen, and with some effort, changeable. They view all same-sex sexual behavior to be intrinsically morally abhorrent, regardless of the nature of the relationship...One very interesting exception to this pattern are the Mennonite communities. They have traditionally been conservative theologically. However, they also have a long tradition of concern over human rights and pacifism. Even as they expel LGBT members who are in loving, committed same-sex relationships, some remain in active dialogue with their more liberal minorities. If they are able to eventually resolve their differences they may be able to give some guidance to other groups -- in conservative and mainline denominations -- for whom equal treatment of sexual minorities has become the principal issue dividing believers." SEE: you can be a good Mennonite AND believe that LGBT people are beloved by God and worth of rights and respect.
Mennonites are a loving, God-fearing, generous and responsible group. You, madam, are no Mennonite.
"If Stephen Hawking can contribute, why can't she make phone calls on behalf of a charity?"
Well said.
There are so many places that have need of helping hands. I am so proud of my male friend that has three kids, married, a more then 40 hour a week job, and still has the fortitude to spend two nights a month as a mentor, laundry person, as the homeless men sleep so they have clean clothes in the morning, at a church that at night turns into a homeless male shelter. He may not spend half a day on his knees in church once a week, but I would put him up against any that do.
Sigh. I truly don't understand where all the fear, antagonism, political pressure comes from when it comes to two consenting adults having a relationship or getting married.
You, madam, are no Mennonite.
This is so true.
People who claim to be Christian, or Mennonite, or whatever, and then spout hate, make me crazy.
I don't want to be tolerated. or to be loved while my "sin" is hated. I don't believe its a sin to be gay. So don't love me and hate my sin, unless you hate the "other" sins. And don't "tolerate" me because I love women rather than men. Tolerate me cause you don't like my brown hair, or my attitude, or whatever.
I wasn't done with the conversation on FB either, and I'm aggravated my friends were treated so rudely by someone who says that they have an open mind. That mind is closed, locked and sealed with a Kapp on top.
Happy Monday people!
Jill, congrats on the new baby! I bet R. is super-excited about it, too! The Chick Fil A stuff this time was really, really rough. Basically the owner was saying homosexuals should die and all...now, that's paraphrasing but that was the gist. He tried to clean it up in later comments but it was ugly as hell and that's why it got so much attention. I don't think anyone was shocked about him having a conservative stance in general, not if they know anything about Chick Fil A. And the FB debacle was ugly...really, really ugly and very unfair. It truly made me see this person in a very different light, the light others have tried to tell me about for awhile and I just refused to believe or see, I guess.
Anon, thank you for that post...I knew the Quakers were tolerate and accepting and had assumed Mennonites would be much the same, so I was shocked to see otherwise. Well, not so shocked from the sister and friends, since they don't claim to be Mennonite, but for her? Yes. But you're right. I did some reading after reading your post and I think what we actually have here is a Southern Baptist in a kapp.
"Isn't this Chick-fil-a stuff old news? It comes around about every 6 months"
That is why I call BS on her not knowing what it was all about. I think she started the whole thing just to get attention and get something going on FB for kicks.
Ahhh, I knew Karen would make it in. ;-)
"He may not spend half a day on his knees in church once a week, but I would put him up against any that do."
You and me, both.
I wonder how these people who are against same-sex marriage feel about polygamist marriage? If you're going to try to use the Bible (incorrectly) to support your disdain for same -sex marriage, wouldn't you then have to be an ardent supporter of polygamy?
and truth be told, I really do not like Chik-Fil-A's food. Honestly. I can tolerate it in a pinch (because it's close to work) but it gives me heartburn.
Jill - how excited is Richard? He will be an awesome big brother!!!
Well, in a related note, I thought I'd share a FB status an old family friend just put up. Honest to God, my patience is wearing so fucking thin these days with stupidity.
"AFA Update!
Office Depot is guaranteeing $1 million to help indoctrinate your children that they are born "gay." Office Depot is attempting to attract children to it by the deceiving title "Empowering Youth".
This week, Office Depot announced it is teaming up with recording artist Lady Gaga to push the homosexual agenda in public schools by encouraging our children to believe "gay" people are "Born This Way."
To help spread the message, Office Depot and Gaga's Born This Way Foundation have created several special, limited-edition products for back-to-school this year. Office Depot is donating 25% of the sale of each item back to the promotion of homosexuality, with a guaranteed payout of $1 million."
promotion of homosexuality
Really, how is that done? By playing a song to kids?
I don't understand stupid. I really don't!
Hail, hail, the gang's all here!
Lisa&Deb- thank you. R is super excited, but has moments where he is worried that we won't like him anymore. Totally normal, but still tough to deal with as a parent.
I haven't heard about the Home Depot/Office Depot thing yet. If I protested every business that gave money to organizations/politicians that I disagree with I'd have nowhere left to shop.
Jill, I agree about there being nowhere left to shop. We do have to prioritize!
And here's a link to the actual story. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/office-depot-partners-lady-gaga-130000591.html
LOL Jill that is so true. So excited for your growing little family.
Lisa - the main cause of the Born This Way Foundation is anti-bullying based and acceptance for who you are. I haven't seen anywhere on my searches (yet) that mentions anything about "gay".
Deb, there isn't anything about it mentioning "gay." Because it's Lady Gaga and she has a huge gay following and because "Born This Way" (the song) is more about gay people than anyone, people like this woman have just run with it. I politely commented with a link to this same article and telling her it gives more factual information. We'll see if someone else unfriends me. :-D
That's what I mean Lisa, it's how others interpret it and gets steam on FB lore.
I hate that.
Jill - R is at a great age for a little brother, and a *big mommy helper! He can do so many things to be involved (unlike if he were like, say, 2 yrs old). He will be just fine!
wow. i'm so glad to know that people who are born or made a certain way are really just trying to indoctrinate the world.
whatever. chik fil a is proud of who and what they believe.
right now i'm low on patience and not able to discuss much of it. so this hits my flash point.
i have no idea who or what we're discussing, but the hatred is wrong.
jill - new babies are awesome! yay for R, i love that he can even express his worries. that helps you know where he is instead of just wondering what he's thinking.
Hi TWG and Jill - I have been following along on here but haven't posted in ages cause I don't have internet at home, just on my phone, and that won't let me comment.
Also have been following your Caring Bridge for Lia TWG, and you are all in my thoughts often... I can't imagine how you are feeling... but just want to say I think Lia couldn't be any luckier if she hand-picked her parents and brother... you 4 are such a sweet family, and I'm so sorry for all you are going through right now!
and congrats on the baby news Jill!
"He may not spend half a day on his knees in church once a week, but I would put him up against any that do."
One of my all-time favorite sermons was at a funeral of a non-church-going man who was loved in his community. He helped so many people, day/night, young/old, advantaged/disadvantaged, etc. and never took a dime for his efforts. So how does a preacher justify this man going to heaven when he wasn't a member & didn't ever go to church? He said, "He was a good man. And goodness comes from God."
"He was a good man. And goodness comes from God."
Amen.
I would rather be a good person without a label, than a judgmental one that hides behind their religion.
I have to say I was shocked at the things that were said. Especially since they were said to people who have honestly cared for and been suppostive through many ups and downs.
"chik fil a is proud of who and what they believe." True. They should not be shocked when they get bad press and/or lose business though. there are a lot of people who also are proud of who and what they believe, and it is a bit less hate filled.
Jill, Congrats again! I am soooo excited for you all! R- will be fine, just you wait and see. you will have to pry that baby away from him!
if you can't acknowledge that all good comes from God, there's a problem. i mean, if you want God in the equation.
hate doesn't come from God. it doesn't. i keep re-reading the godmademegay site. over and over. it echoes what i've wondered as a kid, what i've come to embrace as i abandoned the close minded hateful church of the past and found what love really is.
i'm not afraid of mychildren being near or raised by someone who's gay.
let's put it this way - the all-time best attending lia had is homosexual. and we loved him. i loved him more because of it. he was safer, gentler, different in a way that a lot of male doctors are not able to be. lia is rarely impressed by doctors these days.
she loved him. and i'd never tell a soul in certain circles about it, because it would open him up to certain wrath. but we love him.
defining someone by who they love is like defining a person's very self-hood by their plumbing.
i looked and looked, but i could't find it. once nolongerquivering had this whole series written by a woman who had married. anyway, they explored their needs, their selves. he found he was happier as a woman, had gender reassignment, and she loved him-er still. still.
and dee is their 'daddy' and mom is their mom. and they are believing loving christians.
found it:
http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com/2012/04/unwrapping-onion-part-one-secret.html
it's beautiful. and i love it.
"He was a good man. And goodness comes from God."
Amen.
I would rather be a good person without a label, than a judgmental one that hides behind their religion"
Exactly.
I just wish the politicians would get in line and uphold that all Americans are equal. We've gone through the struggles with equality for women, blacks, chinese, etc. I think it is shameful of states that deny gay couples the right to marry.
exactly. people are people are equal are deserving of kindness, justice, love, peace, freedom to be themselves. safely.
Rhys, your lack of patience up there indicates something unusually troublesome, even more than usual happening. I hope it's eased up today.
"whatever. chik fil a is proud of who and what they believe."
Exactly. And furthermore, I'll support them if they choose to say gay people aren't allowed in or even if they say we are evil. That's their right and they should never have to tolerate anyone they disapprove of in their restaurants. My issue is when they start backing up this stance Biblically, because at that point, it becomes a lie. That holds true of private individuals, too. I don't care if they don't like me or other gay people...that's their right and I'll defend them that right, whether I agree or not. But use the Bible and/or God and I'll fight back to defend the Bible and God, since neither have a problem with me or others like me and that's made *very clear in the Bible.
"He was a good man. And goodness comes from God."
Hearing things like this honestly does my heart good.
"I have to say I was shocked at the things that were said. Especially since they were said to people who have honestly cared for and been suppostive through many ups and downs."
Me, too. I know I've stuck by her despite being laughed at, despite people I respect trying to explain why they see her differently, etc. And in the end, none of that mattered. It was fine to let people degrade me and Karen in ugly, ugly terms since she agreed with them.
"hate doesn't come from God. it doesn't."
No, it doesn't. Nor does God play mind games or make mistakes, imo. Whatever entity/ies you want to put the label "God" on for the sake of conversation, God, to me, is all-powerful, always right, always kind and good in intent and doesn't play games with us over serious things. Now, I do feel God has a sense of humor and may mess with us a bit in gentle ways to teach us lessons or to make us laugh at ourselves, but overall, there's nothing negative in God's intentions toward us. Whatever we are, He made us this way and that's that.
lisa
holy freaking cow. i am so sorry. i thought i finished that thought. ): dangit. i'm so sorry
i meant 'chik fil a is proud of who and what they are' blah blah blah. they have the right to believe it. they also have the right to be wrong.
i don't like them. i don't like what they are saying. and they've irritated me for a long time before i even knew this part.
they're sanctimonious and do it in a way that continues to garner their support of certain groups.
i do not agree with chik fil a.
and i cannot explain what's going on with us that had me so flashed. it's not the right time.
good thoughts, though i don't deserve them. a hope or prayer for peace, and ... i don't know. just. dangit.
i'm so sorry.
thinnk i will eat my feet for a while, and hang my head in more shame.
"I'll support them if they choose to say gay people aren't allowed in or even if they say we are evil. That's their right and they should never have to tolerate anyone they disapprove of in their restaurants."
Right, but they aren't saying that. Chick-Fil-A doesn't want gay people to have the same rights as straight people, but they sure don't mind having gay people come on in and turn over their cash.
Well that is because anyone is good enough to take money from....doesnt mean that we have to want them to have all the same rights as anyone else just expects to have. That is the mindset that just pisses me off with the whole thing.
shannon
yes. that.
yea, so now i'm starting to see stupid things about chik fil a on my timeline/newsfeed.
like boston doesn't want chik fil a, support chik fil a. just because a 'person' disagrees with the ceo of chik fil a, it's somehow wrong and unfair. but it's ok for a franchise to support hatred and discrimination?
*puke* all the stupid 'conservative' slogans these days really get to me.
Where is the quote from the CFA exec? I can't find his hateful speech. All I can see is his defense of traditional marriage, which differs from your stance. I don't find that hateful.
I realize that wasn't the point of this post, it was to slam a particular person, but it would be nice to see where you heard or read the CFA quote.
A biblical defense of marriage:
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/sermon/jesus-and-homosexuality/
This article has the quote and the audio from the radio show he was speaking on.
http://z6mag.com/business/chick-fil-a-anti-gay-statement-dan-cathy-ceo-stands-ground-on-ken-coleman-show-1612067.html
He also really slams single parent households as well.
Well nowhere in that article or audio does he say: (according to lisa)"Basically the owner was saying homosexuals should die and all".
So either she heard other audio or she made it up?
Anon 2:47: Paul is not Jesus Christ, nor is he God. He is interpreting God's Word just as any other devoted religious scholar does. If you (general) believe that Paul has all the answers, then you must believe that:
Women should not wear jewelry or style their hair ornately: "I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God." (1 Timothy 2:9)
Only women who bear children will inherit the Kingdom of God: "But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." (1 Timothy 2:15)
Converts to Christianity (which Paul was, by the way) need not apply: "He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil." (1 Timothy 3:6).
I can go on. By the way, Paul did not hold the marriage vows sacred; they were just in place so people had an out when it came to sexual activity. It wasn't revered; it was just the lesser of two evils. "But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:9)
This is all NIV, but I can use any version you would consider to be reliable.
Incidentally the reference to "porneia" claims that homosexuality is not found in nature. In fact, animals show homosexual urges and behavior all the time. Since they don't have the ability to reason that we humans do, it would seem the urge IS found in nature; they aren't influenced by the Godless media.
I look forward to your thoughtful responses.
Anon 3:13....Now you wont find that phrase in what he said now will you? I mean after all what Lisa said in its entirety was this, "Basically the owner was saying homosexuals should die and all...now, that's paraphrasing but that was the gist."
What Dan Cathy said was this, ""I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage,' and I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about," Cathy said in that interview" Now what does it mean when God passes judgment upon the land in the bible? It generally means that those who offend Him will be struck dead.
Generally that is what the word paraphrasing means....taking a statement and using less words.
Anon 3:15
It all depends on what you believe. I don't think we are coming from the same belief that all scripture is inspired by God...is the very word of God. So though Paul is not God, he has been inspired by God to write as he does the word of God. Inspired meaning "God-breathed"
As a Christian I believe Jesus is the resurrected Son of God. So If I believe Jesus is the resurrected Son of God, I can't follow all the 'clean laws' of diet and practice, and I can't offer animal sacrifices. All that would be to deny the power of Christ's death on the cross. He has done away with the entire sacrificial system and cleanliness laws. The New Testament has reaffirmed many commands from the Old Testament and so those are still binding...The moral law outlines God's own character his integrity, love, and faithfulness. And so everything the Old Testament says about loving our neighbor, caring for the poor, generosity with our possessions, social relationships, and commitment to our family is still in force.
And so those who really believe in Christ must follow some Old Testament texts and not others.
Thanks Shannon. It seems we don't read the same things from what was said above or what the article has quoted Dan Cathy as saying. Probably because we don't agree on this issue. That's ok.
I guess I was paraphrasing when I shortened Lisa's above quote.
My point is he never said he thought homosexuals should all die...at least not in that article/audio link. Unless Lisa has another source. And I think she should answer that if she chooses.
Anon 5:37:
"And so those who really believe in Christ must follow some Old Testament texts and not others."
I don't debate that. So with regard to that, how do you decide which ones to follow? Which are not covered by the New Covenant? And I mean that with all sincerity, with no snark. Why is it better to...let's not say persecute homosexuals, because that sounds like I am just trying to aggravate you, and I am not. Why do we focus on the urges and behavior of homosexuals as un-Christian, but do not consider circumcision necessary? It would seem to me that circumcision, particularly as an adult choice, would indicate a commitment to the Covenant for the self, but dictating the sexual behavior of others places us in judgement which is not in keeping with Christ's message.
Why do you think Christ would alter our vision of others, as he accepted lepers and prostitutes, and changed that OT view, while keeping the dietary and taxation restrictions? It would undoubtedly be healthier, for instance, not to eat a cheeseburger (in keeping with kosher law), which would seem to make God happy.
I think you've been very respectful thus far; thanks for your input, and please take my posts in the spirit (no pun meant) that they are intended.
From Facebook:
"Tanya Leigh Oakes: And maybe I'm completely insane..."
^
^
^
^ Winner winner chicken dinner. At last she admits it.
Cute how now that Tee has (she thinks) whittled out the non-Bible thumpers (save Karen, bless her heart) she brings this bullshit up again.
All you anons need to come up with a name, I can't tell if you are the same person or two or three.
Jill, it doesn't matter. Tee is reading here, but she won't even actually "read" or give consideration to what anyone has written. Her kapp is firmly sewed on sideways.
"thinnk i will eat my feet for a while, and hang my head in more shame."
Please stop...you did nothing wrong! Unless, of course, you like eating your feet. I got what you were saying, even if you didn't finish it and agree with it all. :-) I also hope things are better there.
"Right, but they aren't saying that. Chick-Fil-A doesn't want gay people to have the same rights as straight people, but they sure don't mind having gay people come on in and turn over their cash."
Anon, and that's their right, too. It's up to *us as to whether we want to patronize them or not but if they want to be judgmental or hypocritical, they have every right to do or be so.
Anon 2:47, I can't find any truly hateful speech from Dan Cathy, either. A couple of days ago my FB wall had a bunch of pictures saying to boycott CFA because Cathy wished death on gays or some such thing. I don't recall the exact statements but it was ug-ly. Now, I've been looking to verify this since and if anyone has links, please share them but the most I've seen, as well, is him clarifying that they only support so-called traditional marriage. Personally, I find that to be incredibly ignorant when basing your opinion on the Bible, since the Bible says no such thing but that's the worst I've heard, as well.
"http://www.thevillagechurch.net/sermon/jesus-and-homosexuality/"
Am I doing something wrong? All I get is a somewhat blank page asking me to choose my default campus.
Shannon, thanks for that link...I found that awhile back but I have been looking for where he may have said something uglier than that. Not that that wasn't ugly and inaccurate, but you know what I mean.
"So either she heard other audio or she made it up?"
Look behind door #3, Anon. ;-) I'll admit my own possible error on this one...I saw FB postings stating far uglier things, including death-y type stuff, as I've said, and they were coming from people who typically doublecheck anything before they post it, so I trusted it to be true. Or at trusted it was far nastier than what he said in the recording. In digging around, I found a lot of people saying he was now trying to clean his comments up and I assumed, that, too, was true. It now it looks like I might be one of those examples of what happens when you...errrr, *I assume. ;-)
"In fact, animals show homosexual urges and behavior all the time."
Absolutely. I just figured everyone knew this but apparently not.
"And I think she should answer that if she chooses."
Of course I did and will. It appears I was wrong about the death-wish thing and have no trouble admitting that at all. If you ask me something, I'll always address it as honestly as I can. No worries. :-)
And can I back Jill up here and ask that if you're going to post anonymously, that's fine, but could you throw a fake name or something on the bottom of your comment so it's easier to know who is saying what? Please? It just makes for easier conversation. And thank you!
Karen texted me that she was still trying to fight this battle with Tee and bless her for the futile effort, but it is exactly that. Jesus Himself could appear and tell her she was wrong and she'd still not believe it, though.
You know, there are questions that bother me, always have, and maybe someone here would be game to tackle them and answer. I hope so.
1. If you are a Christian, do you believe God makes mistakes? If not, why are some people gay? Or think we are? Why doesn't God just stop it, if it's not true?
2. If being gay is really Satan leading straight people into temptation, why doesn't God stop Satan? Or is Satan more powerful than God?
3. Why are people so fearful of their kids being exposed to gay people if they've done a good job bringing their kids up with the morals and values they feel are right?
4. If a heterosexual marriage is strong to begin with, how can a gay marriage devalue it? Isn't that like saying your neighbors buying a BMW devalues your Mercedes? Or, alternately, if you want to go with the idea that a gay marriage doesn't have the value of a straight marriage, would your neighbors buying a Honda devalue your Mercedes?
5. Why are people so opposed to gay people legally marrying? Legal marriage is a governmental thing, in no way religious. I'd think the real stink would be with churches and clergy people who marry gays in God's house, in church, legal or not. It's government-sanctioned marriage that the stink is mostly about, though and I find that so strange. Isn't that, in effect, giving more weight to the government than God? Speaking only for myself, I give far more weight and important to God than I do to our government and, as such, I also give far more moral weight to a marriage performed in a church and by a leader of the church, even without a government-issued piece of paper, than I do a marriage performed by a clerk in a courthouse. Why don't those opposed to same-sex marriage believe the same?
Morning Daisy's!
I am raising the white flag - and asking anyone here who wants to explain the bible verses quoting homosexuality is wrong according to the bible to go for it HERE... I was told in the facebook conversation that the conversatino would be deleted and we could take things to private messaging, and since I (and my friends) were publicly told we are abominations of Satan, I prefer to publicly answer them... since it will be deleted *there* then we can discuss it *here*...
You fight the good fight, Karen :)
I just think everyone should be accepted for WHO YOU ARE.
So many haters in the world.
*YOU - generally speaking
minus pedophiles, murderers, etc.
You get the point
☺
I don't mean to make this a fight... I don't even feel like it was a fight. It was almost banging my head against the brick wall... because what I say will not compute with someone who's mind is made up that WHO I am is wrong, and that wanting to be treated equally in the eyes of the law as far as marriage is wrong... So I got tired of the head-banging... and came HERE!
Hey there. You don't know me, and I don't know you, but we have a certain, um...friend? In common. And I wanted to tell you how glad I am that I was able to click the link to your blog post here before the conversation was (stupidly, etc.) deleted. I hadn't been able to clock to God Made Me Gay before, and I am glad--so glad--to have read it. So thanks for that. And thanks for being willing to engage when you see or hear a wrong, even though it seems pointless, even when your words and fight will ultimately be erased...because it wasn't pointless, and I remember everything. You have been an example to me. Too often I ignore the ignorant rather than facing up to the truth that they say is harmful. (And often that ignorance is put on to cover hatred, attention grabbing, etc.) I am am educator. I love and hold strong beliefs. That shouldn't stop when I'm on the Internet.
Anyway, thanks for this. And I am sorry, too, about how the conversation went down.
Elby Stab (not a real name, by the way, but a clever pseudonym, even if I do sat so myself)
Grrr, click and say! Not clock and sat. Stupid phone.
Elby
You know what else I was thinking? Look at all of the publicity that Chik Fil A has generated - free advertising! Now, you may say it could negatively affect them, but I think the majority population would support them.
Welcome aboard, Elby. Stick around. :-) We go through long quiet spells here but every so often we do have really good, in-depth conversations here. Nice thing is, everyone can speak freely and it won't be deleted as long as you don't start giving out people's addresses and such.
And Karen is awesome. Cute, too! Heh.
I'm sure some won't be happy that I brought the topic here from Tee's FB but I wasn't finished discussing things so I figure if someone closes the door on me I'll open a window, to twist an old saying some.
Deb, this has absolutely been a PR boost for Chick-Fil-A...I'd bet anything they've seen an increase in business.
Especially since they are now circulating an "I Support Chik Fil A" thing on FB now for 8-1-2012.
Looks like it started on Mike Huckabee's FB campaign.
Totally free advertising. They don't have to spend a dime, and rake it in!
Well, look, you can't blame them for capitalizing on it if they can. I mean, from a business standpoint, they'd be foolish not to. Personally, I'd not feel okay making money off lies and hypocrisy, but they sure aren't the first company to do it, nor will they be the last.
Hi Elby - nice to meet you!
And Lisa is cute too ::bats eyelashes:: Thanks for opening the window over here Lisa. Everyone may not agree here, but at least most will listen reasonably... and I won't feel like smashing my head into a wall here!
If you are one that commented *with* me over there, thanks Elby!!
Thanks, Karen, and you're welcome. It got quiet...did we wear it out?
Totally unrelated, but is Kate still around? I miss her. And has Tina given up on BWOP?
Congrats on the new Baby Jill xD
My new baby isn't so new anymore, she's going to be 3 months old Wednesday!
Lisa I will be putting up new pictures of the little one tonight :)
and a funny note to add- My birthday was Thursday... and neither of my parents remember how old I am. :)
I just wanted to say...I haven't read much yet in this discussion...just a bit really, but enough to know...I AM SO GLAD I came here to read tonight. Here I find some sanity. Some reason.
Now, this thread is long and I don;t know what comes after the bit I've read. I'm going to read the rest, and I HOPE I feel the same when I finish reading.
I knew there had to be some sanity in this madness somewhere on the Internet. I've obviously been reading the insane sights. Thanks, Daisies. <3
I have never asked the folks wearing turbans at the nearest Texaco what they believe before I pay the reasonable price they request when I buy their gasoline.
In the world of my needing the shit you sell and me agreeing to buy the shot you're selling, unless you have giant photos of child porn posted in your front window and seriously seek to offend me in the most obnoxious way, I could care less about your beliefs if you offer me a local product that I need at a competitive price.
I don't the Chinese folks who run the local laundry if they're communist and have had any of their female children sold into the black market.
I don't ask my veterinarian if she participated in a PETA protest last weekend.
I have no reason to boycott CFA because the owner is a zealot and a bigot. I don't do that at the laundry or the vet or anywhere else. Why would I do it when I want a chicken sandwich (which I never do, BTW)?
Hello Robin :)
I really think that the one thing that is making this such a hot issue right now is that it is an election year and it is a hot button issue.
I dont have to worry about boycotting them or not because to find a CFA I have one hell of a drive...and I like KFC :)
Robin, if you choose to support a hate monger and a bigot, nobody can stop you, but why would you be proud to tell everyone about it? That is over my head.
And to say you have no reason to boycott zealots and bigots is a bold statement. Would you feel the same way if they were speaking that way about women, or you, or your daughters or sons?
I'm also guessing you didn't ask Mr CFA what he thought. He just let you know. His job is to sell chicken, not to save the souls of chicken eaters.
Anon--I said that incorrectly, and you are correct. I wouldn't be "proud" to support a zealot bigot. I don't necessarily even support the owner of CFA. I already said I rarely eat there, and I live in the heart of CFA country. The point I was trying to make is that generally, I'm not asking merchants what their religious or political beliefs are. It doesn't impact (usually) my shopping habits.
Mr. CFA didn't say he hated gays. He didn't say he hated gay marriage. He said that HIS beliefs were for a traditional marriage, which, no big shocker, is typical for fundamentalist Christians in the South. Not all believe as he does, but many if not most do.
I do not. I don't agree in any way with that narrow-minded viewpoint. In fact, it irritates the crap outta me. I say if you love someone who is also a consenting adult, whether or not you wed should be no one's decision but your own, and in no way should anyone else discriminate against you in any way because of who you love. That's just plain ridiculous.
I also think Mr. CFA has every right (ever heard of free speech?) to say that his beliefs are in favor of the traditional definition of marriage without everyone who disagrees with him trying to destroy his business. Where this derailed is all the people who translate his expression of a position that reflects his religious faith to be the absolute equivalent of saying he hates gays. He never said that, or anything even remotely near that. He expressed his beliefs when asked point blank in an interview that his views were traditional. That is all.
And finally, ultimately, my point was that I rarely know the beliefs of the people I buy stuff from, nor do I ask. It doesn't impact my purchase habits. Now, if I knew the guy running the corner market was some sort of disgusting criminal, then yeah, I wouldn't buy from him. But that's not what we're talking about here.
We can agree to disagree. Mr. CFA never professed to be attempting to save the souls of chicken-eaters. He was asked his beliefs, and he shared them. He is, however, doing his job of selling chicken quite well. :)
I'm just wondering if Anonymous is choosing to no longer purchase gasoline from gas stations that receive their fuel from OPEC nations that are fundamentally opposed to homosexuality. Not for nothing, but if you are going to argue that, by purchasing chicken from Chick-Fil-A, one is indirectly giving money to a man who is going to then donate that money to organizations that are opposed to same-sex marriage...if you're going to make that argument, than you also ought to make the argument that purchasing fuel from OPEC gas stations is indirectly putting money into the hands of people who not only oppose same-sex marriage, but believe homosexuals should be put to death.
So if you're going to boycott Chick-Fil-A, than perhaps, you also ought to be walking from place to place as well.
Anonymous, 3
Ohhh, peoples are here! Mama P, I think I have a link to your blog so I'll go check the baby girlie out. I cannot believe it's been 3 months already! And happy belated birthday to you. :-)
R2, it's really good to see you back. :-))
"I have no reason to boycott CFA because the owner is a zealot and a bigot. I don't do that at the laundry or the vet or anywhere else."
I'm sort of a hypocrite on this, I suppose. I won't eat there, not because of Mr. Cathy's beliefs but because of the organizations CFA donates to, organizations that take a far uglier stance about us. That said, I'll stand by anyone's (and that includes corporations) right to speak their minds and beliefs and I admit I've got possibly some situational ethics when it comes to patronizing them or not. But, if I find out they've received any federal funding or corporate welfare? Not so much. I don't want to fund someone else's religious views, especially when they are not even correct according to their own religion.
"So if you're going to boycott Chick-Fil-A, than perhaps, you also ought to be walking from place to place as well."
Not so much, 3. If the Koran spells out that's what should happen (does it? I don't know...) and that country is government by Islamic law, I may not *like it, but that's that and it's to be respected, imo. We are not a Christian nation, we are not supposed to be governed by Christian law and I take issue with any company or organization that denies me right I should have here.
I've been reading various sites for years and thought that Tee was months from death for the last few years. Looking at her open facebook pictures, she looks healthier than I expected.
MACK
MACK, I'm not sure what to say to that. Tee turned out to be a lot of things I didn't think she was. I will say, and I'm positive of this, that she does have health problems. But really, that's all I know to be true about her anymore.
Mama P, I checked your Roo and she's so pretty! Your whole family is good-looking! I still can't get over her being 3 months old now, though. I know I have your blog from when you posted it ages ago and if you want to repost, please do. :-)
Let me back up...I left that too open-ended about Tee and I apologize. I'm speaking of her character and such being something different than I thought I knew, not things like where she lives, her family and all. That part is all true.
It's good to be here, Lisa. :))
In all fairness, I edited the statement you quoted. And I agree with you. I'm not here to argue...much! ;)
I have many friends, gay and not, who express exactly what you just said. And I believe it's a fair stance.
My point was, though, that generally I don't know who the owners of the businesses I patronize send their monetary support to, and I only know who Mr. Cathy does because someone took exception to his personal beliefs and chose to make an issue of it. And though I don't agree with him, I will say that to his credit, he does not temper his convictions because of convection.
And I have to wonder...WHO is more intolerant?
Love Daisy for all the free thinking on all sides of a discussion.
My C&P is not working...so I will paraphrase. Lisa, glad you stated that the US is not a Christian country and is not intended to be ruled by Christian law.
Free Speech is very important. So is Separation of Church and State.
Is Tee still around? on Facebook or blogging?
Ann - Yes, Tee is still around. She and I are FB buddies. She still blogs, too, but I think it's by invite only.
Hi folks - I recognise a lot of the names here from the OHIH days... I was just Pete, Ali and Charlie back then (or PAC!) but I've gained a Rosie since then! Hope everyone is ok - I just wondered if anyone had heard anything from Rhys - Lia's mum (Tumbleweedgirl)? I've been following her Caringbridge site, and it has suddenly disappeared, as has her blog. Lia had been deteriorating a bit, so I just wondered if everything was ok. Sorry to gatecrash this thread - hope you're all ok!
I think she probably had to shut it down after Lisa exposed her here.
anon if you're referring to me shutting something down because lisa exposed it, nothing could be further. we have issues in our life right now that necessitate some extra safety.
i told lisa why, she's let those who want/need to know the same.
we're ok. i should have said sooner, and i'm sorry. we're ok, lia is doing wonderful things! in a gifted miracle sort of way. we are so thankful.
I'm so glad I dropped by tonight and saw your post, Ryhs. I have been so concerned about your sweet girl, but also understanding of your need for privacy.
I'm so glad you shared, and I think of you and your family EVERY DAY. But you have no obligation to let anyone know what's up. I respect you so tremendously. And my Mom heart is wrapped all over you. Love you and your resolve. And I hope Lia is doing well.
Rhys - so glad all is well. We think of you often. As Robin said, I completely understand your need for privacy and of course you're under no obligation to share anything at all. I'm sorry if my question made things more difficult. Hoping Lia continues to make good progress. Take care. x
Happy almost-Sunday to everyone :-) I have read here a few times but not commented lately; I've been tied up <---pointing out my string reference.
Twg/Rhys, so happy to hear your little Lia is doing good things, and hope your other issues resolve.
As to the main topic here, all I can say is that I SMH to see the direction our country has taken. I never would have thought I'd see exclusionism as an American value.
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Gawd, I disappeared again. I'm so sorry! Jake came back home and we've been having fun just hanging out and all and it seems I never make it off FB and email. I suck at this...really, I'm sorry.
PAC, or should I say PAC$R, I remember you an dam sooo glad to see you again! y the name change, it looks like there's been a new addition and I need to catch up. Please do stick around, will you? And how is Charlie doing?
"I think she probably had to shut it down after Lisa exposed her here."
Exposed *what? I'm going to assume you mean Tee and not Rhys, as there's nothing to expose re: Rhys and Lia except that Lia is doing a lot better. :-)) If you mean Tee, that's not really news, either. It was something that annoyed the hell out of me so I vented about it, but in the end, there's really nothing to expose that most people didn't know, or suspect strongly, all along. I was just late to the party. Again.
PAC$R? Seriously, I need new glasses. That should have been PAC&R.
I see Tina is back...that makes me happy, weirdly enough.
Anyone still keeping up with the Zimmerman case?
"As to the main topic here, all I can say is that I SMH to see the direction our country has taken. I never would have thought I'd see exclusionism as an American value."
Coming back to this. It *has become a value to many, hasn't it? There is so much happening in this country right now that is surprising me, and not in a good way. We should be leading the world in the acceptance of those who may be different from the norm, since that's how we were founded. The US should be where everyone can find safety and comfort in their own beliefs, lifestyles, or opinions (as long as they don't harm others) without worrying over the beliefs of others being inflicted upon them. We are supposed to be a nation of independent, rugged individualists...what happened?
Hi Lisa! Yes, we have a new addition - Rosie is ten months old now, and she is fab! She managed to beat all the odds and was born healthy - she doesn't have Charlie's heart condition, nor the genetic condition our first son had. :-) Charlie is on top form - growing like a weed and doing really well heart-wise. He just learned to ride his bike AND how to swim in the last week!
I hope all is good with you and yours - glad you've been having fun with Jake!
I'm so glad to hear that Lia is doing well - I've been keeping up with her since OHIH and I had a bit of a panic when I couldn't find her blog!
So nice to touch base again and to see so many familiar names! :-)
Ali, I've just caught up on your blogs and had the best time looking at pictures! Charlie looks so grown up now and so well! I was really impressed with how he took to both the bike and the swimming...it agrees with him. Rosie is a doll, she really is, and looks like she's literally about to give you a run for your money any second now. ;-)
I can't win for losing around this place. I check in a few times a day for days and nothing...but God knows, let me not check in for a couple of days and people start tapping on microphones and such. Sheesh! ;-)
So, was that video of Lachlan on JM's FB not precious? How cute was that little sleepy eye after he rubbed it? I don't normally find him to be cute (oh, whatever, I just don't) but this was. :-)
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:-D
sorry guys. i've been a little, a lot, busy.
i'm staying with friends. and they've got a new roommate. she's beautiful, and her girlfriend is too.
i love being somewhere that it's just accepted, normal, and not even strange. i mean, some places are still so conservative you have to make a big deal out of accepting.
here i was, in a christian friend's house. and it was 'here is so n so. and her girlfriend'.
just normal. like it should be.
Rhys, yes...it shouldn't even have to be a matter of being accepted. It should just be something that *is and it sounds like it is there. I hope Miss Lia is still doing wonderful things, too. :-)
String, I'm going to take the damn microphone away from you if you don't stop that!
By the way, I was just reading about JM's impersonator over on MWOP and while it was quite funny, someone may have just bought themselves a world of trouble with the mentioning of drugs. Someone has finally crossed the line and done something that could actually be illegal in that...dumbass.
our treasure is amazing in her strength and sass. we love her so.
acceptance and fact are 2 different things. accepting something will be is not the same as graciously acknowledging and bending with the laws of gravity.
I'm glad to hear Lia is doing well and hope that someday you feel safe updating us all again with pictures and such. So many of us grew so attached to her. :-)
And you're right...accepting something implies you have no choice so, like it or not, you have to deal with it. I typically find I don't like things I have to accept.
String, I just thought about something...did I know you many years ago on AOL?
No, Lisa. But don't you wish you did :-P
Hope it's okay to wish everything well in Lia-land - even though I don't know you, I wish you well. That girl is a darling.
I have a couple of trans friends. One of them looks a fair bit like me and when we're out and about in a group, people ask us all the time if he's my son :-) We just look at each other kinda annoyed-like and say A-yup :-)
"No, Lisa. But don't you wish you did :-P"
I'm not sure. It means I'd have slept with you. :-D
Why are you annoyed when they ask that? Well, unless you're his age, in which case I'd be a bit more than annoyed.
Oh we aren't annoyed. We're just trying to act all teen son and mom-ish. He isn't that young but definitely looks young.
You're a hoot :-))
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