Sunday, March 25, 2012
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the daisy rules
- Oopsie Daisy
- Everyone is welcome! The only real rules here are no spamming shit and no posting personal addresses, phone numbers or other similar info. I don't need that kind of stress. That's it, although it could change if someone gets creative or something. If you don't like what is said here, you can: 1) Say so; 2) Hold it in and stew on it; 3. Address it privately to the person who said it; 4) Snark about it to your friends; 5) Leave. Don't bother me with it, I don't care and I won't get involved. I might, however, talk about you behind your back or post your email/message to me on here. *grins* Them's the rules...all of them. Have fun!
do something good
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72 comments:
"hat was a fairly moderate comment you left JM, I especially like "if her conscience ever bothers her about that". That's a key question, non? Because if not, there's no hope for her in any respect."
Well, I did start it by suggesting she ask her bankruptcy judge where she should go on her trip, so I guess that put her in a bad mood. I swear, her views on this bankruptcy are killing me, but more irritating that that is someone who puts such private details of their life out there publicly, then refuses to discuss them, even when they involve the people reading them. The arrogance astounds me.
"Allow me to ever so slightly disagree. Not being able to prove negatives still allows me to analyze positives."
Oh, indeed, yes, it does.
"That means that while murder rates have been on the decline since 1996, they started to jump up again significantly in 2006, the year after the new law was passed."
Because I'm too lazy to double-check you, and because I don't think I need to, I'll agree with what you found. But, you have to also keep in mind other factors that happened in the range of 2006. That's when the economy first started taking a serious nose-dive and Florida was and is one of the hardest hit states. That always causes an increase in serious crime, and for various reasons. That aside, if memory serves, we also had an influx in violent crimes back in the late 90's, as well, and no such law was passed then...but then crimes rates dropped. Perhaps this was just one of those "normal" fluctuations that happen in any crime rate. I don't know. Since you like to research and since I'm lazy today *grins*, if you find yourself bored, maybe look into how Florida's population increased from, say 1997-2007, and compare it to the percentage increase in murders? Seems like you'd sort of need to do this in order to get an accurate feel for whether the increase in crime was really an increase or simply the result of more people moving here and the natural increase in crime rates that would follow? If the justifiable homicide rate raised by 6% but population raised by 8%, for example, then one would have to say the law either worked or had no real impact, no? And by the way, that's not a challenge to you, suggesting you look. If you've got better things to do, don't worry about it. :-)
"In comparison Alabama (w/o Stand your ground)..."
We don't know what other factors were at play in Alabama, though. Population increases or decreases, gun ownership, even changes within law enforcement could play a part.
Still from the last post, in what appears to be my attempt to bore everyone to death...
"So here's MY common sense telling me that either Florida is the lone state whose LE can't figure out crime prevention (while heavily relying on its citizens to protect themselves) or not all justifiable homicides would have turned into actual murders."
Going with your idea here, I can tell you that finances, or lack of them, has hurt law enforcement here greatly. Couple it with a natural increase in drug trafficking (a *huge* "industry" in Florida for geographical reasons) when the economy is down and a massive amount of transients in and out from other states and you've got many, many reasons for any increase in crime. Also, illegal immigration adds to our crime rates. Anytime there's an influx, crime rates go up. In fact, if there is any way to check, I'd bet violent crime increases in the winter, when northern transients/homeless come here for milder weather and in the dead of summer when the heat frays nerves of everyone.
"Hell, maybe all unaccounted for murderers have migrated to Florida, lowering rates everywhere else."
Oddly, there could be a little truth to this. I know, at least at one point, we had a greater than average number of pedophiles.
"The gray area is the interpretation of “the person reasonably believes that [it] is necessary”, IMO."
I agree...the law needs fine tuning, as this case has shown us. Those gray areas have no place in laws.
"Finally, I hope I didn’t come across as if I wanted to provoke you into defending Florida. Dumping on people’s home turf can be a hot button"
Pshaw. I hate Florida. Hate. It. As soon as I can, I'll be gone and don't expect to ever come back unless I choose to rent our homes instead of selling them and get forced into coming back to deal with something there. But, I have to defend things I feel may be unfair or inaccurate about Florida, just because it's only right to do so. I will say, I don't think you have a reason in the world to have any fear of the state...outside of the horrific heat and humidity and a piss-poor economy, it's a good, friendly place with some bad pockets like anywhere else.
"Assuming those exist, they may not have experience with bankruptcy of their own. So when the paperwork and the lawyer and the experts are telling her that the only time period that matters are the 6 months prior to filing… who could contradict that?"
Well, shoot, I've never had experience with it either but if someone told me that, I'd doubt the hell out of it. But hey, maybe I'm just cynical. Her followers online, though, have heard enough now to know otherwise and yet, there they still are. They must either be in the bad financial shape themselves so they relate, or they're the type that would stand up for anyone they perceive as being picked on, no matter how bad the person is. Who knows?
Is everyone having a good weekend?
Lisa,
Don't have much time... will reply properly later.
In short, what I did use as basis for my 'statistic' was
-to look up murders per 100,00 people per state
-yes, population rates
-justifiable homicides (were in absolute numbers)
1. Alabama & Florida both had population increase over the last 10 years (who moves to Alabama, seriously?)
2. I took the 2010 Florida cencus, deliberately neglecting the fact that there's been a 17+% increase over 10(?) years
3. I based the yearly murder rate + jh rate on the more generous population of 2010. In effect the correct census would give an even greater increase...
4. So all I did was multiplying the FBI official rates (like 5.4) w/ the population per 100,000 (ca. 190) to get the absolute numbers for murders as well, added the jh (ca. 100, but took actual figures) & divided by population again.
Like I said, it was done very roughly, just to get an idea. Because comparing a tripling of percentages to rates in 100,000 didn't tell me anything. If the tripled jh rate meant they went from 3 to 9, no need to think about it. (Like the questions you raised as well.)
I'm calling that Florida fear semi-irrational when I probably should call it fully irrational.
It was started by learning about palmetto bugs when I was at an impressionable age. And then I was told that there are bugs big as cows. Or roaches big as bats and bats big as calves? My memory is fuzzy because I think I passed out. People laugh about me when I bring it up, but nobody has really refuted it.
And yes, crime added to it. Not the amount but the type. It seems to me that whenever there's some wtf crime happening it's in Florida.
"they're the type that would stand up for anyone they perceive as being picked on"
Have to think about that one, because I have a sneaking suspicion I'm guilty of it.
I definitely stand up for not getting carried away and just pick because a group has decided on a 'victim'.
I'm otherwise having a good weekend. You?
The MAF and I did yard work ALL DAY today, the bad news? I can't move I hurt so bad. The good news? We have our yard back under control.
I missed all the fun and excitement of last week, I was to busy doing things I can't even remember now :) We did buy a new lawnmower which is pretty awesome.
Hi, all! And I wish someone would come work in my yard. *hints*
Just have a sec but wanted to say I'm beginning to have some second thoughts about the Trayvon Martin case....that maybe this was just a bad place at a bad time set of events for them *both, with no one really to blame. Anyone else having any changing thoughts on it all? I'll check back later and respond to Kate, too. :-)
The more I read about this story the more I am totally unsure of what to think.
I fear for the racial and political fallout of it all though.
:P, I'll send the MAF he's gotten pretty good at yard work.
I've watched the Trayvon Martin case, but I never really formed a solid opinion because I wanted to see what evidence they had, I watched an interview yesterday with the special prosecutor on the case, and then listened to some of the "new details" that supposedly came out over the weekend, and to be honest... I think Zimmerman may be overzealous but I don't think he purposely killed the little boy, I think he really thought he was in danger, and if what the witness says is true, Trayvon did hit him, (or defend himself), either way I think it was a tragic mistake.
@Jill, I'm worried about the fallout as well, the Black Panthers put a 1 million dollar bounty on the mans head, not to mention the riots and protests that will ensue if Zimmerman isn't arrested.Although even if he is arrested I'm not convinced he'd be found guilty.
and on the skeptical note, I saw yesterday (can you tell I finally turned on the tv for more than 30 seconds yesterday?) that the Government gave $50,000 to the families of the Afghanistan victims, and something smaller to those wounded.
Do you think this is acceptable? I don't,I don't think its right at all.
My opinion has not changed at all. Maybe I watch too much Judge Judy but as soon as Zimmerman got out of that vehicle to follow that kid on foot he lost all ability in my book to cry self-defense.
The minute he decided to say fuck waiting on the cops to show up and got out of that vehicle to take care of things he changed the chain of events that lead up to that kid being killed. I dont care about that kid's past behaviors, I dont honestly care if that kid had actually been in possession of a weapon, as soon as Zimmerman got out of that vehicle something bad was going to happne, and it did.
MamaP that is one thing with the US and "war" time that just pisses me off. I mean hells bells we are in the middle of this war because once we were no longer in a Cold War with Russia we walked away from Afghanistan. No thanks for letting us use your country as a battle ground. No let's help rebuild what we helped destroy. Nothing....we took a big part in leaving that country in ruins and then we walked away and never looked back again until Bin Laden and the likes started doing things 25 years or so ago to get our attention.....then we just called them terrorists and still ignored why they were grumpy with us.
In the last, what 20ish years? We started a new thing....oh your country got blown up....here are millions to rebuild...here are millions for your economy....here are millions every year for infinity. Overkill in my opinion.
This may seem like a stupid question on my part, and prior to asking everyone please know I genuinely don't know the answer. Why are we in Afghanistan right now? I know we were after Bin Laden but they found him, does it just take a long time to get out?
Part of the reason why I think it was wrong to pay out that money hits semi close to home, one of the counties/small towns was hit with an F3 tornado a few weeks ago, FEMA denied them Federal aid for one reason or another. I've seen first hand what that denial is doing, but they paid out tons of money to families in another country :(
AND if we have such a budget crisis in our own country why are we shelling out money to other countries when we struggling in our own?
Mama we have to make sure that the government that is in Afghanistan is going to be acceptable by out standards. Ya know cuz now they have their opium fields back in full swing, something that the Taliban forbade.
And I totally agree. Areas in my own state were denied federal funding after flood damage back in January. Crazy that we ignore our own.
As usual, Shannon used the perfect words to describe how I feel about the Martin case.
Plus, I'm still not seeing reasonable belief for Zimmerman. What, losing a fight that you pretty much instigated warrants deadly force now?
Oh, and the only yardwork I'm willing to do is pour a ton of concrete and paint the damn slab green.
"My opinion has not changed at all. Maybe I watch too much Judge Judy but as soon as Zimmerman got out of that vehicle to follow that kid on foot he lost all ability in my book to cry self-defense."
I agreed with you 100%...until two things happened the other night: I was chatting with a cop friend who (because this whole damn area is small-town) knows some cops in the area this happened and then I, for the first time in years, happened to channel-surf and land on Sean Hannity, who(m?) I dislike. Only, lord have mercy, he was presenting the *exact same situation my cop friend had just insinuated. So, the deal is this...the 911 calls (only some weren't, they were calls to the police non-emergency number that Zimmerman made, which actually speaks additionally to his state of mind) that have been released have *not* been released in chronological order. They were never professed to be in chronological order; people just assumed they were. If you reverse those calls, it matches Zimmerman's statement completely. Add to that there *was an eyewitness to the fight and he was on the phone to 911 reporting it was Zimmerman having his head beaten into the concrete when the shot was fired and he then went back, looked and said the guy who was on top doing the beating is now laying in the grass...yeah. I think ti was a case of both of them being in the wrong place at the wrong time, both being scared of the other and both totally misreading the other's fear as suspicious activity. I could go into greater detail and will if it's warranted but I'll cut this short and see if anyone feels differently, knowing this.
"I fear for the racial and political fallout of it all though."
You and me, both, Jill. If they don't all but hang Zimmerman, all hell is going to break loose.
"but I don't think he purposely killed the little boy,"
Mama P, I'm sorry, but this is driving me crazy with people. This little boy was 17, 6' tall, 160 pounds and he sold weed as a job. All facts. This was no "little boy", no child. This was a street-wise young man.
"Do you think this is acceptable? I don't,I don't think its right at all."
You mean the victims of the soldier gone haywire? Hell, if so, I guess I have mixed feelings about that. It sort of seems we owe them something...at the same time, we don't have any money to give them, technically,and people here *do need it, too. I just don't know. As to why we're in Afghanistan? They've supposedly harbored Al Qaeda. That's the best supposed reason I've heard. I'm still trying to figure out what the fuck we were doing in Vietnam.
"I really hope this puts him on the right path, Shannon. It's too bad something bad had to happen, but let's face it, it could've been something a lot *worse."
Now while I dont think he was a little boy...he was still just a kid. Commonsense of a turnip at that age. Selling pot? Yea questionable....was he selling pot when this incident occurred? From what we have been told...only if it was hidden in the skittles.
"I think ti was a case of both of them being in the wrong place at the wrong time, both being scared of the other and both totally misreading the other's fear as suspicious activity."
And if that dude would have just stayed in his vehicle...he would have had his head meeting concrete and that kid would still be alive.
My son is 6' tall and 145....believe me when I say he can hold his own but a dude that weighed twice as much as him and has what 11 years of more life experience should have been able to find a way to end this without violence.
I'm confused.
"Selling pot? Yea questionable....was he selling pot when this incident occurred?"
How does that matter in this case? Have they amended the law to 'reasonable belief of selling pot' now?
"have *not* been released in chronological order"
Yeah, but his 911 calls go back 14 months, nothing unchronological about that. The picture I'm having is of a paranoid racist. Who was told by the police that 'they don't need him to do that'. 'That' being to try and follow the suspicious black guy.
If anything, Martin was making use of HIS right to stand his ground. And was killed in the process.
"I was chatting with a cop friend"
I have no idea how close you & your friend are and what quality of info he normally gives you, but the last thing I'm expecting is that cops not defend each other's actions.
Especially in a case where the cops have replaced the DA's office.
Yeah and that quote I used up there.....yeah questionable LOL it was from a conversation I was having with a friend on FB HAHA having nothing to do with this case the quote should have been:
"Mama P, I'm sorry, but this is driving me crazy with people. This little boy was 17, 6' tall, 160 pounds and he sold weed as a job. All facts. This was no "little boy", no child. This was a street-wise young man."
Seriously my computer is irritating me a little with its not wanting to use the c&p the way I tell it to :)
"And if that dude would have just stayed in his vehicle...he would have had his head meeting concrete and that kid would still be alive."
So everyone knows, Shannon and I have argued this back and forth most of the day privately, so I'll spare her and everyone else a reply any longer than utterly necessary. If anyone actually wants me to explain more, say so and I will, though. In a nutshell, he was only out of his car for a very brief stretch of time, literally seconds, during which Trayvon was running or walking fast *away from him. The cops instructed him to stop and he did, immediately, turning and going back to his SUV. At the very point he turned and went away from the direction Trayvon was traveling, Trayvon became safe and it was a completed incident. When Trayvon doubled back and came back to him, confronted him, it became a separate and new incident. And that much is fact, not guesswork. Now, what happened in the seconds to minutes between that confrontation and the eyewitness seeing Trayvon beating Zimmerman's head into the concrete is up for grabs. If the phone was still on, the PD hasn't released that. But, what cannot be denied is that the incident, the second incident, the one that escalated into Trayvon being shot, was initiated by Trayon.
"My son is 6' tall and 145....believe me when I say he can hold his own but a dude that weighed twice as much as him and has what 11 years of more life experience should have been able to find a way to end this without violence."
And I believe most athletic 6', 160+ pound (which Trayvon was) young men can hold their own just fine against an overweight, out of shape, shorter, man. In fact, I believe he'd probably win that fight if no weapons were involved.
"Yeah, but his 911 calls go back 14 months, nothing unchronological about that. The picture I'm having is of a paranoid racist. Who was told by the police that 'they don't need him to do that'. 'That' being to try and follow the suspicious black guy."
First, have you heard or read transcripts of those calls? In nearly every single one I've heard, possibly all, he never voluntarily mentions race. He only responds when asked for what color the person is. Even in Trayvon's case, he didn't volunteer the info...when *asked, he responded with a moment of hesitation and then "I think black." As for being racist, it's now been confirmed he has black family members related not by marriage, but by blood and with whom he is close. His wife and he tutor children, many black, on the weekends and have for quite some time. Add into this the fact that in all of those calls me made to 911 and were to supposedly report black people, not a single incidence of violence or even undue confrontation was ever reported. Seems to me if he had wanted to kill a black person and somehow justify it, he's had ample opportunity in the past.
"I have no idea how close you & your friend are and what quality of info he normally gives you, but the last thing I'm expecting is that cops not defend each other's actions."
He didn't and for this guy, I'll put my claws out because he is as decent, honest and good as any human being can be. All he did was to tell me that the tapes are not released in chronological order and should not be listened to in the order the media is releasing them in while insinuating it projects the proper order. My apologies if I wasn't clear and made it appear he defended anyone...he did not, He simply clarified something.
"Especially in a case where the cops have replaced the DA's office."
*bangs head*
Because of the Stand Your Ground law, there was no case to turn over. They handcuffed him, took him in, got him medical care at the jail and questioned him. The SYG law came into effect and that was that. His story matched the evidence, 911 and other police calls, and eyewitness account. They had no need or legal ability to go further.
Trust me, I'm night and day in opinion fro where I was a few days ago, as you can look back and see, but getting facts and hard evidence, as opposed to emotional outcries, can do that to some people. I still maintain, *now, that I believe these were two innocent enough young men who were scared of one another in this situation, who both felt they needed to defend themselves or possibly be killed and one of them was going to die that night, as a result, either by beating or gunshot. Neither set out to actually hurt anyone, neither were doing anything wrong. It was just the perfect storm of bad events, I think, nothing more or less, and with a terribly sad outcome that was inevitable, one young man or another.
So, who wants to be in an SUV with 5 young children, one difficult adult, one large dog and a shit-ton of luggage? Not me. Thanks.
Lisa....you make me smile :) Did you see the police station footage from when he was taken in? They had it on the news tonight...he didnt have a mark on him and never went to the ER so I dont know?
And to be trapped in an SUV with 5 young children, one difficult adult, and one large dog.....honestly let me say DEATH FIRST!!!!!
Back when my kids were like 4 and 5 my dad offered to pay for the three of us to go from Oregon to Maine......on a Greyhound!!! Let me say I have not gone on that trip yet and the kids are almost 19 and 20. There is no freaking way in hell I would lose my mind somewhere along the way.
"Lisa....you make me smile :)"
Ditto, Shannon. Even when we differ, it's a great big ditto. :-)
"Did you see the police station footage from when he was taken in? They had it on the news tonight...he didnt have a mark on him and never went to the ER so I dont know?"
I did and what I saw was his nose looking about twice the size it normally is. Not bruised but definitely swollen. He didn't go the ER, from what they reported here, because jail medical took care of him. That would make sense, since he wasn't dying, endangered or anything.
"honestly let me say DEATH FIRST!!!!!"
Rofl! That's about how I felt, too.
"on a Greyhound!!!"
No, just no. I did Greyhound when I was in college, traveling back and forth home and I swear, i could have pedaled a bike faster. Add the freak factor in and no.
"No, just no. I did Greyhound when I was in college, traveling back and forth home and I swear, i could have pedaled a bike faster. Add the freak factor in and no."
At 16 I got put on a Greyhound from Oregon to Wyoming and then a few months later I went on one from Wyoming to Maine. Let me tell you I will NEVER be on a Greyhound ever again. As if taking 5 days to go from WY to ME wasnt bad enough, there was the 3 hour wait in Albany New York at 3 in the morning, and the very aggressive drunk man in Boston.
"At 16 I got put on a Greyhound from Oregon to Wyoming"
This shouldn't even be legal.
"went away from the direction Trayvon was traveling, Trayvon became safe and it was a completed incident."
I'm not sure if somebody pumping adrenaline from being followed will perceive it the same way in that situation. It's easy to count seconds and feet distances for everybody else after the fact, but might feel different to the person who felt threatened in the first place.
He might have thought that Zimmerman simply wanted to re-enter his car because he couldn't chase him down on foot. And run him over next.
So - still in perceived self-defense - he might have struck when Zimmerman was turned away.
"Add into this the fact that in all of those calls me made to 911 and were to supposedly report black people, not a single incidence of violence or even undue confrontation was ever reported."
I was mostly deducing this from the fact that the suspicious people he reported were black people. It doesn't really matter that he didn't open the conversation with that fact.
He probably knew that he'd be asked for distinctions anyway.
And, I'm sorry, did you just play the 'I have black friends' card for him?
"for this guy, I'll put my claws out because he is as decent, honest and good as any human being can be."
I don't understand why you'd need your claws here. My question related to my ignorance of your relationship with him. He could be a longtime neighbor who was friendly enough to tell you about the scoop he'd heard but in a 'open for public knowledge way'. Or he could be a close friend who gave you an exclusive.
Either way there was no criticism from my side. It's an observation. I simply don't expect cops to mention anything about other cop's actions that are not favorable to the police in general. Better?
"*bangs head*
Because of the Stand Your Ground law, there was no case to turn over.[...]They had no need or legal ability to go further."
Why are you banging your head and confirm my exact statement with your next sentence?
See, due to the fact that whenever 'stand your ground' is evoked at the scene, the police are now determining probable cause. The case is never presented to a DA who decides if prosecuting for manslaughter, murder, etc. is warranted. It's in the hand of the police now. They never have the legal ability to go further. That's the DA's job. Which is now cut off at the police investigation.
"but getting facts and hard evidence, as opposed to emotional outcries, can do that to some people."
Good for you. I sure hope you realize that I'm not emotionally outcrying either. My opinion is based on the facts as I see them as well.
"these were two innocent enough young men who were scared of one another in this situation, who both felt they needed to defend themselves or possibly be killed"
Yeah, still not seeing Zimmerman being threatened. In his car, noticing Martin and his Skittles. Sorry. Where was the threat to him?
And who wants to comment on the fact that MWoP once more had to redact their 'scoop'?
"I'm not sure if somebody pumping adrenaline from being followed will perceive it the same way in that situation."
then that's on them.
"It's easy to count seconds and feet distances for everybody else after the fact, but might feel different to the person who felt threatened in the first place."
Look, I'm talking about the distance an overweight young man could cover while still speaking clearly, albeit windedly, on the phone, as opposed to the distance a young man in excellent physical condition could covering an even longer period of time, since Zimmerman didn't follow him until after he ran. Since Martin ran before he was *ever followed,I'm not sure how he felt terribly threatened but regardless of that, it's pretty obvious who could cover the most ground the fastest.
"He might have thought that Zimmerman simply wanted to re-enter his car because he couldn't chase him down on foot. And run him over next."
No possible way. This was a gated townhome type community with individual building housing a few units in each. Parking for each building was next to the buildings, and each building was freestanding. A drive-though type road navigated the entire community. All Martin had to do was to run home. or run behind a building and then lay low until he could get home. At the point he took off at a higher than normal rate of speed and Zimmerman turned back, away, he was perfectly safe. He could have run home, hidden and called the cops, run back out of the community and requested help, etc. He chose to come back to Zimmerman.
"So - still in perceived self-defense - he might have struck when Zimmerman was turned away."
So, we're assuming now that he could have run to safety and, instead, chose to come back to defend himself? And hit Zimmerman when his back was still turned? Um, okay. That's not doing a hell of a lot for the argument that he felt threatened, you know.
"I was mostly deducing this from the fact that the suspicious people he reported were black people. It doesn't really matter that he didn't open the conversation with that fact."
Here's a newsflash: In the Orlando/Sanford area, most of the crime is committed by blacks or Hispanics. Sanford? More heavily black-committed crimes. That's just how it is in that area. There are many, many good people of both races, but reality is reality. If most of the people committing crimes in that community are black, what's he supposed to *do? Lie about their race when he calls? Let it go since he's already reported black people that month?
"He probably knew that he'd be asked for distinctions anyway."
sure he did. So you're assuming he lied? Based on what?
"And, I'm sorry, did you just play the 'I have black friends' card for him?"
Newp, since that's such a foolish comeback that people use. I simply acknowledged that many people who don't identify as black often have close black friends and that, in and of itself, is a degree of proof. Add into that having family who are black and it's stronger evidence yet against racism. Do you think people who have black friends and family tend to be racist against blacks?
"I don't understand why you'd need your claws here."
Because I read your comment as insinuating that he was, as the saying goes, talking out of school, or worse, lying to defend his buddies. If that wasn't your intent, I'm glad to know that. :-)
"My question related to my ignorance of your relationship with him."
He is a cop who I met during an ugly, mean divorce and who helped enforce a domestic violence restraining order when it was violated on several occasions. He was, in effect, my protector for awhile. We became friends in that time frame, since he was assigned to my area. In later years, he's handled a peeping tom case and a big frozen chicken theft (lol, I kid you not) for me, watched after all of us around here, defended Jake in a bad girlfriend episode with her folks and just generally been a stand-up guy I've become personal friends with. He's not the type to violate rules, either, which is what I thought you were implying he did.
"Either way there was no criticism from my side. It's an observation. I simply don't expect cops to mention anything about other cop's actions that are not favorable to the police in general. Better?"
Sure...only he didn't and I never said he did.
"Why are you banging your head and confirm my exact statement with your next sentence?"
Obviously because that's not how I read your statement to be.
"That's the DA's job."
Only it wasn't. That's what you aren't getting, Kate, that not everything goes to the DA. Maybe it does in some areas, but not here. If the cops feel it's a clear-cut case of innocence after examining their facts, that's it.
"Good for you. I sure hope you realize that I'm not emotionally outcrying either. My opinion is based on the facts as I see them as well."
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're doing here.
"Yeah, still not seeing Zimmerman being threatened. In his car, noticing Martin and his Skittles. Sorry. Where was the threat to him?"
None to him at that point and no one is claiming such. A possible threat to the community? Definitely, stressing the word "possible". and, at that point, he most certainly never shot him or even spoke to him. Really, the more evidence that comes out, the more clear this is all becoming. It's awful, it's sad, and it's looking more and more like it wasn't anyone's fault, really.
And, you will all be relieved to know I may not be around tomorrow...Jake is leaving for NC and we've got a lot to do. Enjoy the break from my novels. :-)
“Mama P, I'm sorry, but this is driving me crazy with people. This little boy was 17, 6' tall, 160 pounds and he sold weed as a job. All facts. This was no "little boy", no child. This was a street-wise young man.”
That one is my bad, I never actually looked up his age or paid enough attention before to hear his age. I saw a picture and ASSumed he was 13 or 14.
“You mean the victims of the soldier gone haywire? Hell, if so, I guess I have mixed feelings about that”
Yeah, this is another one my foot is in my mouth, sort of anyways. The money was given to the victims’ families. I’m just not sure I agree with giving it to them. When someone attacks America’s, are the families compensated by the [persons] government. For example if someone from Australia came to America and shot a bunch of people, is the Australian government going to pay the victims’?
Then I remember that the US arrests or tries to arrest them, they don’t give them back to the country they are from, and we have the soldier in our custody so Afghanistan doesn’t even have a chance at trying him, although I think it would be a quick trial, the guy would be killed, after he was tortured. By all accounts the guy should be held accountable where he committed the crime but that can’t really happen, so yeah. WTF. I have no idea what I think anymore, it feels like a clusterf*uck of thoughts to me.
Um, I have 3 kids and I pretty much take them everywhere alone b/c hubs works long hours and I would NEVER want to take them in an RV by myself, a car trip *maybe*. I say that because I've taken the kids to Evansville IN, where I have family. It's between 5-8 hours depending on speed and how many stops we make. I survived that, but we drove there,stayed for a week and drove back.
Going on a tour across the south, um NO THANKS, We like each other just fine alive, and it'd be questionable who'd make it back!
add a dog, a Lab no less into that, ugh yeah, I'd be in the nuthouse.
Hell, grocery shopping day always ends with take out, and early bedtimes!
"I'm not sure if somebody pumping adrenaline from being followed will perceive it the same way in that situation."
"then that's on them."
I politely disagree with that.
That's really not how adrenaline works.
"Since Martin ran before he was *ever followed,I'm not sure how he felt terribly threatened but regardless of that, it's pretty obvious who could cover the most ground the fastest."
I see quite the opposite. Zimmerman gave him the hairy eyeball, Martin's reaction was to run. He is then being chased. By a man who has access to a car. I'd feel pretty threatened at that point.
"At the point he took off at a higher than normal rate of speed and Zimmerman turned back, away, he was perfectly safe. He could have run home, hidden and called the cops, run back out of the community and requested help, etc. He chose to come back to Zimmerman."
We don't even have a way of knowing that for certain though. That's Zimmerman's statement. Yes, evidence and witness(es) support that to some degree, but not 100%. And nobody had a second statement from Martin, to see if evidence and witnesses might support that as well.
So - still in perceived self-defense - he might have struck when Zimmerman was turned away."
So, we're assuming now that he could have run to safety and, instead, chose to come back to defend himself?
I don't know, we're obviously also assuming that walking around and looking about warrants a 911 call and an armed chase.
It is impossible for me to say that Martin's reaction was unreasonable if he thought the chase might continue by car and he didn’t have a chance. And I looked at the aerial views, even if Zimmerman's account is 100% true, all properties are lined by streets/car accessible.
”That's not doing a hell of a lot for the argument that he felt threatened, you know.”
It does for me. Walking around earned him intense staring. Running away earned him being chased. Even if we believe Zimmerman, there is only a one minute gap in the chain of events.
So how great can Martin’s distance have been to double back, have words, attack Zimmerman, pound on him and get shot? Plus, according to Zimmerman, Martin came from his left (rear). That kind of puts Zimmerman between Martin and his home. And then we have Zimmerman Sr. telling us Jr. was ‘reaching for his phone’ when Martin inquired if he had a problem.
Do you know for sure that the gun in his waistband wasn’t visible & threatening to Martin, forcing him to act?
"If most of the people committing crimes in that community are black, what's he supposed to *do? Lie about their race when he calls? Let it go since he's already reported black people that month?"
That's a valid point. Being unfamiliar with the area I can only deduct from the facts as presented. Like I said, it's a picture I'm having because of all his calls. Not saying it's necessarily true.
But given the amount of suspicious activities he’s called in vs. the amount of arrests that came out of it, I’d go with door No. 3.5: Let it go because by now you should realize that there are far less criminals surrounding you than you think.
""He probably knew that he'd be asked for distinctions anyway."
sure he did. So you're assuming he lied? Based on what?"
Not saying that at all. I was mentioning this in reply to your "he never voluntarily mentions race." It isn't any indication of racism or non-racism that he doesn't volunteer race is what I meant.
"His wife and he tutor children, many black, on the weekends and have for quite some time. […]Add into that having family who are black and it's stronger evidence yet against racism. Do you think people who have black friends and family tend to be racist against blacks?"
I don't like to generalize that one way or the other. But that statement IS playing the 'I have black friends card'. And according to his father he tutored exactly 2 black kids. That’s not so many. Still, they have that number readily available when needed to make that point.
Zimmerman might differentiate between blacks that are part of his family, just like there were nazis married to Jewish women.
He might also be truly kind, caring and color-blind. I wouldn't wager a guess. But I'm conceding that we don't know if he is a racist.
"Because I read your comment as insinuating that he was, as the saying goes, talking out of school, or worse, lying to defend his buddies."
No, no, no.
::Sigh::
Here's where the internet doesn't convey tone or intent adequately.
All I meant was I have no idea how 'public speech' or 'talking amongst you & me' that info was. I could've just not said it, as it was merely out of curiosity, not relating to the quality of the info.
"In later years, he's handled a peeping tom case and a big frozen chicken theft (lol, I kid you not) for me"
If you ever feel like sharing, these are the stories I’d love to hear more about!
"He's not the type to violate rules, either, which is what I thought you were implying he did. "
Again, absolutely not. (Also, where would he violate rules, not being part of the investigation... Please give me credit for a little logic here.)
"Sure...only he didn't and I never said he did. "
I took the statement that the 911 calls were released out of order to be in a way defending their decision to accept 'stand your ground'.
"Only it wasn't. That's what you aren't getting, Kate, that not everything goes to the DA. Maybe it does in some areas, but not here. If the cops feel it's a clear-cut case of innocence after examining their facts, that's it."
Now you are explaining the existence of the fact with their very existence and then accusing me of not getting it.
I’m getting it alright. I’m just objecting to it.
As ‘Stand your ground’ determines that no crime has taken place, the DA, judge, jury are circumvented. It’s turning the justice system upside down and it doesn’t happen in any other area. It’s only ‘stand your ground’ with its automatic immunity from criminal prosecution.
A man shoots an unarmed teenager and doesn’t have to prove his innocence. No alcohol or drug test for Zimmerman, no investigation if there was no other way for an armed person to get out of a fight. The armed man claims HE was the one afraid for his life, despite being on record admitting to following his suspect, to prevent that ‘assholes always get away’.
"Good for you. I sure hope you realize that I'm not emotionally outcrying either. My opinion is based on the facts as I see them as well."
Honestly, I'm not sure what you're doing here.“
Huh? Just stressing the fact that my opinion is based on the facts as well, as opposed to an emotional outcry. Here I wasn't sure if you were indicating that...
May I ask you something else though? Let’s say Martin had a (wife &) kid. Let’s say he had life insurance. According to the police declaration of justifiable homicide, the insurance now refuses to pay. Because in order to be justifiably dead he must have been in the process of committing a crime himself.
How’d you feel about that?
In general, I hope you had a nice day yesterday and are not too sad that your kid has moved away(?).
And I sure as hell hope that we can disagree about Stand your ground w/o claws and headbanging.
"In general, I hope you had a nice day yesterday and are not too sad that your kid has moved away(?).
And I sure as hell hope that we can disagree about Stand your ground w/o claws and headbanging."
Kate, definitely! As you noted, sometimes things don't relay well across the internet and I think we've both just experienced that. :-) The only thing you said that really aggravated me at all as about my cop friend, and even then, in the grand scheme of all aggravations, it was minor. You explained, I get it, we're good. At least I am, so I hope you are, too. As for my head banging, you can ignore that. it's my internet equivalent of slapping my palm to my forehead, something I actually do in real life to express...well, most anything even remotely frustrating, annoying or irritating. the price of black grapes went up 85 cents? I palm-slap my forehead in person, or, alternately will /headdesk or *bangs head* online. And you? Had no earthly way of knowing that. As to the Trayon case, I still believe there's a good chance there's an entirely different story that's the truth here, but I also know it's possible not. I just happen to feel it's more probable Zimmerman was acting in (at least perceived) self-defense than you do. trust me, I don't get really mad over stuff like this, I promise. I just talk big. ;-)
As for Jake, I miss him fiercely but it'll be better soon. I'll adjust. He'll be 21 this year and it's time for him to spread his wings some. Whether or not this is an actual move-out for good has yet to be seen, but he went with the intent of finding a job (can't here) and taking a closer look at a wonderful college specializing in theatrical arts. I figure whether he stays or comes back, I sort of win either way. :-)
How is everyone?
I forgot this:
"May I ask you something else though? Let’s say Martin had a (wife &) kid. Let’s say he had life insurance. According to the police declaration of justifiable homicide, the insurance now refuses to pay. Because in order to be justifiably dead he must have been in the process of committing a crime himself.
How’d you feel about that?"
Actually, he doesn't have to be in the process of committing an actual crime, if we want to be really technical about it under the Stand Your Ground law. Let's say you are walking down my street at 1am and you are attacked by someone with a gun. You wrestle the gun out of their hands and run to my house, beating on my door to be let in because you are seeking safety. In your fear, you are throwing yourself at my door. I look out, see what appears to be you (and I don't know you) trying to break into my home with a gun in your hand. I can legally and justifiably shoot you. In fact, political correctness be damned, probably *would shoot you if you weren't a woman. You were committing no crime yet for me, it would be justifiable homicide. would your family be due your life insurance policy money? Morally, I say yes in our pretend case here, once it is determined what actually happened. Legally? Probably not, with the stipulation you set forth up there.
Hello Ladies, just checking in. There was a massive shooting here in the Bay Area, across the bridge from me in Oakland. Very sad. The count is up to 7 dead. This was at an adult holistic/nursing school. What a scary world we live in.
Oh D that is so scary. I haven't heard about it on the news yet. Glad you are safe.
"How is everyone?"
Tired, and nesting which doesn't seem like it works well together ha. I'm taking my house and sping cleaning/nesting this week. Each day I'm doing 1 room, it works out well because my house will be sparkling for Easter and all will be in order before baby gets here!
@D, I *think* I heard about this a little while ago. It is really sad, When we watch the news at night there is always news of a shooting or murder in Cincinnati. Last night 5 people were shot :(
in other fun news, do you guys remember when I told you I found my dad? He left rehab last week, and is already drinking pretty heavily :(
Oh, Mama P, I'm so sorry about your dad. How disappointing and sad, both. It's just completely out of his control, isn't it? :-(
D, I heard about that...I was hearing it's a Christian college in a heavily Korean community. Is that accurate to what you're hearing? I'll be interested to know why he did this. Damn. So micy ugliness int he world.
"So micy ugliness int he world."
Translated: So much ugliness in the world.
Lord.
Thankfully, I have a decoder ring. :D
Heh...and there's our String with her bag of handy things.
Heh. And rocks. Don't forget the rocks. :D
mama P: Are you in NKY?
-Julia
"Oh, Mama P, I'm so sorry about your dad. How disappointing and sad, both. It's just completely out of his control, isn't it? :-( "
I used to think it wasn't but as an adult I see that it really is, he can't stop, he doesn't know any other way of life. My dad's family has been in the horse racing industry since well the earliest I know of is the late 20's early 30's. My grandfather was a jockey, and my dad started on the track as a kid. Somewhere in there alcohol joined the party. As long as my dad works with horses, he will drink. Unfortunately horses are all he knows, and all he wants to do. He's worked at a few food places here and there but horses are it.
I'm honestly not sure he will ever get sober, the few times I've talked to him lately he has said he doesn't want to stop, its his way of life and he doesn't want to change 0_0
I guess in the grand scheme of things I'm glad now that my kids don't know him, they'll never know the pain that comes with him.
@Julia, I was born in NKY,and grew up right on the border of Ohio/Kentucky. It was a 10 minute drive across to the river:)
Now I live north of Cincinnati, we're sorta in the middle of Cincinnati & Dayton.
Mama P:
I'm from Florence Y'all!
Julia
@Julia, I LOVE that damn tower! hehe, when we used to drive from Cincinnati to Lexington I couldn't wait to see the tower :P
Well then I can say where I grew up an you might actually recognize the town, Mt. Washington. About 10 mins from River downs.
Florence? Mt. Washington? Y'all are damn Yankees, nearly. ;-)
That's so very sad about your dad, but I firmly believe it passes the point at which it can be controlled. He's missing out on so much, as is his family. How old is he?
Lisa, yes that is correct. They have identified the gunman. He admitted to doing it because he says some of the administration was not treating him with respect. Although, the Police say the person the gunman named was not among the 7 he killed or 3 he injured. Gunman also stated he felt some classmates had been teasing him. Prior to the shootings he had been expelled from the school.
Here is the full article:
http://www.mercurynews.com/top-stories/ci_20314384/oakland-school-rampage-suspect-sought-revenge-against-administrator
"Florence? Mt. Washington? Y'all are damn Yankees, nearly. ;-)" <~~ Made me giggle
We don't have much family left, I come from one of those families that has been completely destroyed by drugs/alcohol. My dad is 51 this year, he is the youngest of my grandma's 3. Both of his sisters are dead, 1 from a drug overdose, the other murdered. One of my cousins died of a drug overdose in 2003, and the family that's left is in and out of jail. True story, my aunt that was murdered.. actually made America's Most Wanted in 2001 :(
Of my grandma's 3 kids, she had 13 grandkids. Of those only 3 of us actually stayed in the family, the rest were taken away by social services and placed for adoption. Both my cousins are older than me by 13 & 15 years. The one who died of an overdose had a little boy but he was taken by his fathers family. My other cousin had 3 kids, the first 2 their dad took, the last one the state took. Unfortunately her oldest daughter is following the same path as her mom.
I say this in a non bragging tone (because really who would brag about such a things, its really sad) but I am the only family member left that is okay. I don't do drugs/drink etc. I follow the laws, graduated high school, college and still in college. Its very lonely, and sad for me.
Knowing my dad is essentially homeless and my grandma is in a nursing home it can all be so much at times. I tried to take care of my grandma but after losing her kids her mind has never been the same (I should mention my grandma raised me and my 2 cousins)
well there, sorry for writing a novel. My husband doesn't talk about my family, and I don't bring them up to him. His response is "who cares, forget about them" however that is not something I've ever been able to do, its just recently I've been able to accept the situation for what it is. 0_0
oops, signed in with an old account. Need more coffee!
"He admitted to doing it because he says some of the administration was not treating him with respect. Although, the Police say the person the gunman named was not among the 7 he killed or 3 he injured. Gunman also stated he felt some classmates had been teasing him"
What is wrong with the world? or the people that do things like this? Things like this didn't happen 50 years ago, I don't understand the mentality of people.
I agree Mama P. I was teased for being short in my classes for years. Never thought of bringing a gun to school! At the end of the article, it mentions money troubles. Bet that has something to do with it.
"What is wrong with the world? or the people that do things like this? Things like this didn't happen 50 years ago, I don't understand the mentality of people."
I actually had to do a little bit of digging to find out about this because though I am definitely old enough to remember when the term 'going postal' was coined because of all of the rampage killings connected to the USPS in the mid 80's I was struggling to remember any before that. Apparently from what I was able to find we have been having these things happen quite regularly for over 40 years. Prior to the late 60's you find maybe a small handful of incidents of workplace violence like this.
It almost makes me feel that the thing that changed was that feeling of entitlement....when it used to be about being happy you had a job that you stuck with your whole life kind of thing.
Richard Speck in Chicago. A sniper in some kind of school tower in Texas. That's all I can remember. And Speck probably doesn't qualify exactly, but he was different than a serial killer because he killed a bunch of women all at once.
This is only from memory. Feel free to look it up and correct me :P
"It almost makes me feel that the thing that changed was that feeling of entitlement....when it used to be about being happy you had a job that you stuck with your whole life kind of thing."
I think entitlement is a huge part of the problem. So many people think things are owed to them, or they deserve it. When in fact they aren't entitled to a thing, nor have they earned it.
I also think it has something to do with taking responsibility for yourself, and how kids are parented as well.
You may be right, Mama P, and Shannon. As my child grew up, I tried to emphasize that the economic times would not always be as they were in the '90s. They were being taught in school that things like the Depression could never happen again, because of governmental controls. I'm so grateful that mine took *my lesson to heart eventually, and was as prepared as possible for the recession.
It did seem that *most kids *and their parents had a spend-it-all mentality. With that came some pretty palpable anger as times changed. Out of that anger ... ? I don't know if it translates to violence or not. Maybe sometimes it does.
Hello Daisy Ladies! Just popping in to say "Hi" and let you know that I'm reading. As usual, never enough time to actually engage in much conversation. After tomorrow, I'll have a few days off work and maybe I can hop on here once or twice between trying to spring clean and spend some time with family. Lisa, I saw that Jake is in NC? May I ask what area? If he's near Raleigh (I'm about 20 miles east but I work downtown) and needs anything, email me and I'll send you my phone number. It never hurts to have a local contact. Always interesting conversations here. Wish I had more time to really "talk" to everybody!
Jae
Good to see you again Jae!
It's so quiet where is everyone?
Hi, sorry about the MIA thing. I actually got a life for a bit. Well, a half-life, anyway. :-) Mama P, when is the little one due?
Jae, it is SO good to see you again! How are y'all doing? Please drop in anytime, as it's always good to see the "old-timers" from blogland! And Jake is in Charlotte, and so far, loving it! I appreciate that offer more than you know, thank you. We have a cousin who lives in Greensboro and she has said if he needs a place or any help, she'll ave his ass so I think we'll be okay but if not, I'll remember this and it's very much appreciated. :-))
I completely agree about the entitlement thing, but I also think there *was a lot of crime like this back then, taking into account the lesser population. We just didn't hear about a lot of it. For one, communities kept it hushed and then, too, the media wasn't as embedded into lives as it is now.
Heh, I just checked BWOP and it looks like Tina will be back soon. This should be amusing. :-)
LIsa:
Heh, I just checked BWOP and it looks like Tina will be back soon. This should be amusing. :-)
-yeah: I just checked also, seems like she has a lot to say? Lol.
MamaP:
We are heading up to NKY later today!
General discussion: My husband just spent another 1100 bucks on a new 12 gauge shot gun. We literally have an arsenal here now. I think we might become doomsday preppers. Anyone know how to can food?
Julia
"when is the little one due?" May 6th, but I still say May 5th because I don't think they counted leap day...soo yeah. Sometime in the next 4 weeks. Am I ready? Not at all, no bags packed for anyone, I should probably get on that... hahaha
I spent some time in South Carolina after high school. I didn't much of the State itself but what I did was pretty. I mostly saw drill sergeants and grass, lots and lots of grass.
"We are heading up to NKY later today!"
Thats cool! Its neat to see someone from the area! We're heading out to Forest Fair/Cincinnati Mills/whatever you want to call it Mall today. But only after the MIL and I go pick up the stroller her and fil bought for us :P, I've been oogling a sit n stand for awhile now and she bought us one! Then we're going to take the kids to Bass Pro to see the Easter Bunny.
Then I'm going to come home and finish cleaning and baking. I'm attempting a homemade cheesecake later tonight. 0_0
and Julia, is your husband perhaps friends with mine? They sound alike! My hubster spent roughly $1400 a month or so ago on 2 new handguns. Making the total number of handguns 4, and 1 shotgun. His next purchase is another shotgun, and he wants a rifle. Him buying the guns is how I ended up with my Kindle Fire b/c I was not a happy Mama when he came home with 2 new guns. Well I guess if the world goes to chaos in December we'll be semi well prepared.
"Then we're going to take the kids to Bass Pro to see the Easter Bunny."
This just cracked me up!
I wonder how many people are cringing, reading about the guns and thinking about the kids. :-D I would *love a good shotgun. The one I have was my dad's, is from the 30's or 40's and while it fires, it's a rough shot. So, I'm jealous. And Julia, there are tons of good canning recipes online. ;-) You know what I want? A fallout shelter. No, really, I do.
I hope Tina comes back...I get a kick out of her in small doses.
** new post up **
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