oopsie daisy...i said that?: Does a judge have a right?

Wednesday, August 4, 2010

Does a judge have a right?

So we have had so many instances in the past where the people have voted on something in their state and then either a judge in that state overturns it or the Federal Courts overturn it.

The most recent being in California. The people voted to not allow same sex marriage but just today a judge overturned that ruling. Here is the story.

In Oregon many years ago the people voted to allow doctor assisted suicide. It was a fight for a long time because the feds said that was not ok and any doctor who did assist was running the risk of losing their medical license.

So my question is, regardless of the side of an issue you stand on, is it OK for a judge or the federal courts to step in and change the ruling based upon their beliefs or personal opinions? Essentially is it right for someone else to make it very clear that your vote and your voice makes no difference?

258 comments:

«Oldest ‹Older 1 – 200 of 258 Newer› Newest»

twirldawg said...: Speaking of tube tops. I facebook stalked Tammi. Girlfriend can rock the pink tube top.; August 4, 2010 at 6:40 PM
Shannon said...: Suz I said Hi to you on the last post but will here too........HIIIIIIIIIIII SUZZZZZZZZ; August 4, 2010 at 6:41 PM
Muliebrity said...: So, doesn't a judge make their decision based on the law? I know there are some rouge judges out there, but generally they have to have a legal leg to stand on. I think it depends on weather a judge is elected or appointed, also, but I think the Federal judges are all appointed, right?; August 4, 2010 at 6:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Suzzzzzzz - your drink looks so good!

I do not believe a Judge should have the right to overturn a vote.; August 4, 2010 at 6:46 PM
Anonymous said...: By that logic then the Supreme Court should just make up the rules and we should follow them. No need for voting.; August 4, 2010 at 6:48 PM
suz said...: Shannon!! Howdy girl!
Margaret ;D glad to *see you. And I agree about a judge over turning a vote. Why bother voting then? What happened to the voice of the people?; August 4, 2010 at 6:49 PM
Lisa said...: Hi, Suz!

"So my question is, regardless of the side of an issue you stand on, is it OK for a judge or the federal courts to step in and change the ruling based upon their beliefs or personal opinions? Essentially is it right for someone else to make it very clear that your vote and your voice makes no difference?"

No, no and more no. I do not like this reversal of a *vote in California at all and yep, that's coming from a lesbian. The people voted and that should be that until it is brought up to vote again in the future. I understand the language on the original ballot was very confusing and it's quite possible many people thought they were voting for gay marriage and, instead, voted against it. Or, maybe they didn't and this is how the majority felt. The only right way to find out is to have another vote, this time with clear wording. To just overturn a vote sets a very dangerous precedent, imo.; August 4, 2010 at 6:49 PM
Lisa said...: "So, doesn't a judge make their decision based on the law?"

Sometimes the law is hazy or non-existent and that's what is trying to be formed. In that case, judges can make decisions based on opinions.; August 4, 2010 at 6:50 PM
Shannon said...: Mulie they do have a legal leg to stand on to a point. Their actions are not considered to be illegal but in this country the people have a voice. The use that voice by voting for and against different issues.

If someone does not agree with the results of how a vote goes they can hunt until they are able to find a sympathetic judge. Judges are people too and also have a stand on issues. It is not right that the voice of the people can be overturned based on the voice of ONE judge.; August 4, 2010 at 6:50 PM
suz said...: I don't recall the wording being confusing but if it was..make it clear! Gay Marriage: Yes? No? Leave it at that and let the people decide..again. I agree it sets a dangerous precedent, where do you stop?; August 4, 2010 at 6:53 PM
Shannon said...: I completely agree with you Lisa. I am all for gay marriage and find it sad that there is so much controversy and opposition for it to happen but I am pissed that this judge did this. The voice of the people has been tossed in the toilet.

I fully believe that if an issue fails to get the desired effect then those doing it need to find out why. They need to go back and try again. Put it back on the ballot worded in a way that will make it so anyone can understand it. It is not up to one person to say that the voters were wrong and change things to make others happy....no no no; August 4, 2010 at 6:53 PM
Muliebrity said...: I think it's kind of like asking mom and when she says no, going and asking dad. I don't think judges should have the right to over turn a vote by the people. I was just curious about those other judge-type things.; August 4, 2010 at 6:59 PM
suz said...: I wonder what this all is going to cost the tax payers in our lovely broke stupid state. They need to be focusing on passing a budget first IMHO!
Headed home now, catch you daisies later! :D; August 4, 2010 at 6:59 PM
Lisa said...: Suz, you're right about that. California has far bigger issues they need to be dealing with.

"I think it's kind of like asking mom and when she says no, going and asking dad."

Exactly.; August 4, 2010 at 7:04 PM
suz said...: Mulie, that is absolutely correct! It got ugly too. People being rude, mean to each other because they were on opposite sides of the issue. It was very polarizing unfortunately.

Ok...now I am going.; August 4, 2010 at 7:05 PM
Shannon said...: Great analogy Mulie it really is just like that.

And Suz you are so right too with the whole thing that perhaps the lawmakers of CA should be focusing on the financial state of their state.; August 4, 2010 at 7:05 PM
Anonymous said...: It's not over - there is already a stay and then an appeal and then more $ will be spent.; August 4, 2010 at 7:09 PM
Shannon said...: I still have to say that I really hate this part of the supporters of keeping the ban, "Supporters argued the ban was necessary to safeguard the traditional understanding of marriage and to encourage responsible childbearing."

Seriously just because a man and a woman create a child makes it responsible? Married or unmarried? I mean come on it is time for some people out there to open their eyes and recognize that there is no 'sanctity of marriage anymore'.

What makes a same sex couple so unworthy? It really is in my opinion this community that suffers some of the most heinous forms of discrimination. They have it harder in a lot of respects because they are not even deemed worthy to have love or children.

And I really do hope that same sex marriage and such is made legal.....I just want it done the right way.; August 4, 2010 at 7:15 PM
Lindsay said...: And, I missed Suz :( Hey, girl, if you check in later!

I have a lot to say and very little time, again you dragged me in with the stinkin' political posts :D I'll see what's up later!; August 4, 2010 at 7:18 PM
Anonymous said...: I know a few couples who have had civil unions - they feel like Elton John does, why make a big deal about being *married. It's something else for the right and the left to argue about. The more one side wants it the more the other side doesn't. It's another never ending battle.; August 4, 2010 at 7:31 PM
Shannon said...: My problem with so many who argue against gay "marriage". They argue that it is a "Christian" right or a gift of God or whatever it is.....I am not a Christian. I dont even believe in God does that make my marriage wrong or illegal since my not believing is considered by many a bigger sin then homosexuality.

What makes straight couples so much better or more deserving?; August 4, 2010 at 7:36 PM
KaytieJ said...: I do not believe a single judge should have the right to overturn a state vote. However, if the popular state vote is Unconstitutional, I do feel it is right that it be overturned.

Case in point is Civil Rights. (not a lawyer so just go by the gist). If a State Vote denies Civil Rights to it's citizens then it should be overturned. I am thinking of the State laws that were in place against the Chinese/Japanese/AfricanAmericans.; August 4, 2010 at 7:40 PM
Shannon said...: I am thinking that the mistake made in the beginning of all of this was leaving it to voters. Honestly I think the fight should have gone to making this a civil rights issue, therefore solving the problem for each and every state. But it hasnt been done that way it has been left on a state to state basis which causes a lot of convulsion.; August 4, 2010 at 7:43 PM
KaytieJ said...: Shannon - You are right. The Feds are watching but left it to the States to hammer out. It is going to be an expensive and disruptive mess. I think, too, that it was left that way because marriage is sponsored and ok'd by the State - that the religious ceremony is just a ratification by that religion, but it is the state's endorsement of the marriage license that makes it legally binding.; August 4, 2010 at 7:49 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm logging off and expect you ladies to have this solved by tomorrow morning :); August 4, 2010 at 7:52 PM
Tammi said...: I live in CA and yeah it irks me. Not the issue per say, but we voted, and then a judge just overturns it? Like everyone else said why vote?; August 4, 2010 at 8:20 PM
Muliebrity said...: It boggles my mind that CA voted "yes" to have chickens treated *more humanely, but voted against equal marriage rights for their fellow man. I believe the Feds need to take a stand and institute a Federal policy allowing Gay Marriage. I believe the first step should be extending benefits to same sex partners of all Federal employees. I agree with Shannon and don't understand how or why this was ever brought directly to the people.; August 4, 2010 at 8:40 PM
Muliebrity said...: So our AC is completely frozen up and we currently have it off and are letting it "defrost." Anyone have any advise on this process? I think the filter got clogged up, but anyone else found a similar problem to have a different cause. Trying to avoid paying the repair guy, even though I *think we have a warranty.; August 4, 2010 at 8:43 PM
PJ said...: I'm with KaytieJ on the civil rights piece of the question of the moment.

Could one argue that the vote to ban gay marriage was a violation of civil rights? And that the judge had an obligation to preserve civil rights?; August 4, 2010 at 8:52 PM
Tammi said...: Is it a wall unit?; August 4, 2010 at 8:53 PM
Tammi said...: Honestly, I don't really care about cell phones. That was until today. I just got the EVO..well, Randy about forced me to. I am suprised I am still not carrying a brick phone. LOL

IT IS FUCKING AWESOME! Yes, I said the F word! hahaha. 4G is the bomb! I am APP happy!; August 4, 2010 at 8:57 PM
PJ said...: I've been thinking about your views on how God works, Lisa.

So, if God doesn't make mistakes, why bother with any medical treatment? Isn't that getting in God's way? Why do you wear glasses if God didn't make a mistake in making your eyes the way they were?

Do you believe God brings hurricanes, landslides, earthquakes?; August 4, 2010 at 9:03 PM
PJ said...: I should rephrase the "Isn't that getting in God's way" to "isn't that trying to fix something that God made"; August 4, 2010 at 9:04 PM
Shannon said...: Tammi I will tell you right now that I am rather jealous....though I do love my Moment I like the Evo too.

CK I have had such same thoughts myself. I mean if you get sick is it ok for doctors to treat it or do you let things happen in God's way?; August 4, 2010 at 9:11 PM
Muliebrity said...: It's my heat pump! My just over a year old, heat pump.; August 4, 2010 at 9:11 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm back - just watched The End of the Affair with Julianne Moore - great movie!

I believe the government does give benefits to domestic partners.; August 4, 2010 at 9:22 PM
Muliebrity said...: Then they should recognize same sex partners for Military personal. I know of a girl who recently tried to commit suicide after she and her GF were separated, granted she probably has other issues. They are both in the military.; August 4, 2010 at 9:28 PM
Muliebrity said...: I'm melting......; August 4, 2010 at 10:25 PM
KaytieJ said...: I miss SW. She always had such interesting perspectives and knowledge on the legal/political issues.

NOT saying that we Daisies don't. Just wanted to put that out there in case she is lurking. Sigh.

Tammi - all my cell phones have been pushed on me by DH. And this USB thing that got me off dial up. I'd probably still be blowing smoke signals if it weren't for him - LOL! Have fun with your EVO!!!

Mulie - Hope your Heat Pump is on warranty since it is only a year old!; August 4, 2010 at 10:49 PM
KaytieJ said...: Liiissssaaaa <---that is a hopeful call out - not a whine.

I was looking forward to you blasting away at my perspectives. You taught me how to fall off the fence, you know :-D; August 4, 2010 at 10:53 PM
KaytieJ said...: Military Gay Rights. On the surface, I am all for it as long as it does not cross the Officer - Enlisted boundary. I hold to that because at our work and many civilian work places (not all obviously-such as family owned businesses) a partner or spouse can not work under a manager that is their spouse or partner.; August 4, 2010 at 10:59 PM
PJ said...: Shannon- my answer to your good question "I mean if you get sick is it ok for doctors to treat it or do you let things happen in God's way?"

I think God gave us (not you and me, but the general us as in people) brains and knowledge to treat sickness. So, I see treatment as a part of "God's way".; August 4, 2010 at 10:59 PM
PJ said...: Oops - I do think God gave you and I brains and knowledge. That was not intended as a insult to you, or me!; August 4, 2010 at 11:00 PM
Shannon said...: LMAO sure CK I know you were saying that the two of us were in the wrong line when brains were handed out :); August 4, 2010 at 11:21 PM
PJ said...: Shannon - mine have just been on strike lately.

Meno-Brain.; August 4, 2010 at 11:27 PM
Lisa said...: Just woke up from a much-too-late nap...let my head clear. I'm here, though. Just deadheaded. Ugh, I hate it when I do this.; August 4, 2010 at 11:36 PM
Shannon said...: OH I hate too late naps. I havent been letting Josh take one after work when he gets home at 6ish.....then he never goes to bed at night and I get to sleep way too late; August 4, 2010 at 11:38 PM
Tammi said...: Shannon..that is what I had, the Moment. And trust me I liked that phone..a lot. The EVO BLOWS it away. The 4G and the new Froyo system are amazing. Randy said it basically has more power, etc then my freaking laptop. Ok,done with that. :)

I don't believe God makes mistakes...stuff happens and he knew it would. Once Adam took that apple, it all went to hell in a hand basket.
That is why he made people with the knowledge to be doctors, scientists,etc.
And so many things are just well free will. We can use the analogy of "if I stand in front of a truck, God will save me" Well,he is saving you by free will and the smarts to know to get the heck out of the way.
Saying that, do I think God performs miracles? Absolutely. All the time. I believe he bleesses though who believe in Him and follow him and His Word.
You can take it for what it's worth, but I fully believe that. :); August 4, 2010 at 11:41 PM
Tammi said...: Oh hate the late naps..or coffee too late. I did that today. Guess I will just jump Randy. LOL; August 4, 2010 at 11:44 PM
Shannon said...: LOL Tammi that is too funny Guess Randy should worry :)

Now I am gonna want an EVO but I still have a year left until I have the upgrade again :(; August 4, 2010 at 11:54 PM
Tammi said...: Shannon...well, I did too. But I sold my Moment on Ebay and got over half of it. Well, Randy did..LOL

Night all! I am beat! Need to go and snuggle with my honey and the multitude of cats. I am one of *those woman. LOL; August 4, 2010 at 11:57 PM
Lisa said...: Okay, I'm back. Jeeeeez, I went back to sleep. I really need to get my ass on some type of regular schedule but it's so hard with Jake around.

Anyway, on the gay marriage thing, I agree completely it should be a civil right and should have never gone up for a vote. It's so foolish to disallow it...it harms no one; it can only serve to help build stronger family units which is something our country could sorely use. But, it did go up for a vote and now I think they need to stick with that in California so as to not devalue the power of a vote. Alternately, it needs to be a federal decision. That all said, I really don't stress too much over it all except that I think gay couples should be able to "marry" and get the same benefits that straight couples get when they "marry". And the reason I put "marry" in quotations is that that gay people have been allowed to marry for years and years, it just isn't legal. But it is still a recognized union in the eyes of God, which, imo, is the most important thing. I'm no stickler about governmentally-recognized marriage from any kind of moral aspect. That all said, a civil union would provide equal legal benefits. Long story short, I think any marriage that is religiously-based should be what is called "marriage" and anything outside the bounds of religion should be considered a civil union, whether the couples are straight or gay. IN my tired, weird head, this is what makes the most sense.; August 5, 2010 at 1:11 AM
Lisa said...: So, if God doesn't make mistakes, why bother with any medical treatment? Isn't that getting in God's way? Why do you wear glasses if God didn't make a mistake in making your eyes the way they were?

CK, I'm not saying I'm right in all this, so you know...it's just how I was raised, and what I firmly *believe to be true. I do not *know it to be true. I just like throwing that disclaimer out every so often. :-) I do not feel God makes any mistakes...and I do believe He's given us the ability to makes some things better for ourselves. I don't think He really cares if we use those things or not, as long as they don't alter the expected, normal, intended (His intentions) course of life. So, glasses? Stitches if you split your head open? Need a hearing aid? Need some Claritin or even a good painkiller? No big deal. I'm all for things that improve the *quality of life. It's things that improve the *quantity of life, if you will, that I believe are wrong. And yes, I know that there are things that walk a fine line and that could arguably go either way...I admit that I struggle with those in my heart. Abortion is a big one of those.

Do you believe God brings hurricanes, landslides, earthquakes?

Not directly, no. He created the system that, as it evolves and works, has those things happen naturally but I don't think God specifically says "Hey, I'm bored as hell and think I'll spice things up with an earthquake in Japan today." For me, what's considered natural science (or Mother Nature :-) is pretty much one and the same as God.; August 5, 2010 at 1:27 AM
PJ said...: Thanks, LisAP for expounding on your views - I appreciate it.

I didn't think you were saying you thought you had the one and only explanation - I just get into asking questions and hearing different perspectives. I respect each of us having our own views.

You're right, the proverbial fine line - yes that's where a lot of this ends up.; August 5, 2010 at 9:21 AM
Muliebrity said...: Ahhh, the AC seems to be working this morning. Hubby turned it back on before he left this morning. I checked the unit about 2 am and it looked to be all dried out, but I figured a little extra drying wouldn't hurt it. Of course it is 30 degrees cooler outside right now then it was at the hottest point yesterday.; August 5, 2010 at 9:50 AM
Anonymous said...: On God and medicine. I don't believe God directs who gets sick and who doesn't. We live in human bodies in the world. I don't believe God is somehow punishing me for giving me a bad heart. I take 2 little pills every day. Without them I would be dead. I think what's happened in this country, and why people's opinion of medicine has soured, is that sometimes we take medicine too far and we only prolong suffering - not life. I read this article this week, I thought it was really good. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande; August 5, 2010 at 11:17 AM
Gusgirl said...: Coming out of lurkdom again.

I don't agree with a judge being able to turn over a vote, unless there is clear cut law to do it.

I live in Mississippi and a few years ago our legislature wouldn't make a decision about removing the confederate flag from our state flag. We voted and although there was a lot of talk of opposition to leaving it as it was, the oposition did not turn out to vote and the flag was left as is with the confederate flag included. Like it or not, it is what the people wanted and I think that is the way it should be and the courts should stay out of it.

drifting back into lurkdom...; August 5, 2010 at 1:54 PM
Lindsay said...: Well, Lisa knows I thoroughly disagree with the not altering the natural progression of life theory. And it's okay. I don't hold it against her :D (You know I'm kidding, right? Right?)

If I didn't utilize modern medicine and the humans who God allowed to create and improve upon said medicine to remove the tumor from my uterus and kill the tumors in my lungs, I would have died at 19. And all the things that I like to think I have accomplished and done to improve the lives of others since that time would not have occurred. Not that I do a *lot, but I would venture I've made a positive impact on a few people through things I've done. I would not have brought 4 lovely human beings into this world, who hopefully will have a positive impact on this world, either.

So, that's just my take on it!; August 5, 2010 at 2:09 PM
Lindsay said...: And theory isn't the correct word, I don't think. It's more of her theology, I would guess. Theory sounds like I'm being negative and discounting it. Which I'm not. At all.; August 5, 2010 at 2:10 PM
Anonymous said...: I think of it as AP-ology.

Waving to Gusgirl!

I wish more lurkers would come out to chat.; August 5, 2010 at 3:01 PM
Melissa said...: I second that Margaret. Come out, come out where ever you are!!!; August 5, 2010 at 3:17 PM
Anonymous said...: What's up Melissa?; August 5, 2010 at 3:34 PM
Melissa said...: The sky Margaret.

How have you been?; August 5, 2010 at 4:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Hardy, har, har, har.

I have been good although we are having a terrible storm.; August 5, 2010 at 4:16 PM
Melissa said...: Sorry, I couldn't resist. My dad used to say that to me all the time. :)

We've been getting a little rain off and on-no storms though. Are you going to have to drive home in it?; August 5, 2010 at 4:26 PM
Anonymous said...: I live 1/2 mile from work so it's no big deal. I wish Baskin Robbins delivered though - I feel like some ice cream!; August 5, 2010 at 5:36 PM
Lisa said...: Hi, hi! I'm finally home and able to sit down and think. Margaret - "On God and medicine. I don't believe God directs who gets sick and who doesn't. We live in human bodies in the world. I don't believe God is somehow punishing me for giving me a bad heart."

Nor do I believe God directs this. I see it as, well, evolution or the natural course and circle of life. God gave our bodies the ability to adapt, or not, to our surroundings and activities. You were most certainly not punished by God, I don't believe for a moment. For all we know it was something about the *medical treatment you received that caused this. Or maybe it just happened. Who knows? But it certainly wasn't punishment.

"I take 2 little pills every day. Without them I would be dead."

And maybe I would have been by now, had I not caved to certain pressures from people to undergo certain medical procedures. That, too, is something I struggle with...the fact I may have really messed up and maybe I should not be here. The simple fact is, some of us die young. It's sad but sometimes necessary. Don't get me wrong, Margaret, because from a purely selfish viewpoint, I'm awfully glad you *are here but maybe, just maybe, that wasn't God's intention. Just as maybe it wasn't His intention that I be here now or (having read ahead some) that Lindsay is here. Just because we've all done some good in the world, and we all have, with our presence doesn't mean it's *right that we're still here. Perhaps more "right" would have been done by our passing. We just don't know and being that's the case, we have to look at it as a possibility. Does that make sense at all? And Lindsay, no worries. :-) I know you were joking and not being negative.

"I read this article this week, I thought it was really good. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/02/100802fa_fact_gawande"

That was just a sad thing to read. A good article, absolutely, but sad.; August 5, 2010 at 5:42 PM
Lisa said...: Hi, Gusgirl and Melissa! I second that I wish more lurkers would come out.

'Tis quiet here today. I'm getting ready to have a full weekend alone - Jake is going to some convention like Megacon, only different. I'll miss him and worry but it will also be nice having the house to myself. A few of you have heard me mention a sort-of local friend of mine, the one in the midst of losing her house and all. Her oldest daughter is pregnant. She's 20 and she lives with her boyfriend and his mom/siblings. He? Is not quite 17 and they've been together 2 years. Do not even get me started on *that. In fairness, he lied about his age to her for a very long time and for the love of God, what kind of mother does he have?? Anyway. She's pregnant. The two of them almost immediately decided against abortion, neither could do it, and to place the baby for adoption instead, realizing they were in no way fit to be parents. I'm very proud of them both for making such a responsible but hard decision. Very proud. It shows there's hope for these two yet. Her mother, though? Is *pissed she won't have an abortion. I just don't get it...not even a little bit. *sighs*; August 5, 2010 at 5:49 PM
Lisa said...: And lastly, Mulie, how's the a/c doing today? Still okay?; August 5, 2010 at 5:54 PM
Lindsay said...: One last thought on it, then I'll let it go. If it's your time, though, then it's your time. And I might have been saved of dying from cancer, but perhaps I'd be hit by a bus. Or the chemo wouldn't have worked. That's been known to happen. If I'm supposed to go, I'm supposed to go, and God will find a way to make that happen one way or another. At least that's what I think.

In the same vein that God doesn't make mistakes, he didn't make a mistake in allowing my life to continue, I would argue.; August 5, 2010 at 6:09 PM
Lindsay said...: Sorry, still thinking. That would assume that you believe God has ultimate power in the end. Which I do. We do have free will, but I believe that when all is said and done, He has the ultimate power.; August 5, 2010 at 6:13 PM
Lindsay said...: And one last thing - as a human, it saddens me to think that more "right" would have been done by my passing, but that's an interesting thought. It's entirely possible, however.; August 5, 2010 at 6:15 PM
Tammi said...: "Don't get me wrong, Margaret, because from a purely selfish viewpoint, I'm awfully glad you *are here but maybe, just maybe, that wasn't God's intention"

If it wasn't God's intention, Margaret wouldn't be here. When it's your time, it's your time, and no intervention is going to stop that. God knwos the day you are born, and the day you will die. :); August 5, 2010 at 6:26 PM
Anonymous said...: AP, were you raised to believe that medical intervention is wrong?; August 5, 2010 at 6:36 PM
KaytieJ said...: I do wish people would talk to their partners, parents, older and adult children, about their wishes if they were faced with long term life support or terminal diseases.

Lisa - why is the mom upset at them putting the baby up for adoption? Hope Jake has a fun and safe time. And you have a nice quiet weekend!; August 5, 2010 at 6:37 PM
KaytieJ said...: Lindsay - We are all glad you are still here. You too Margaret. I'd give a group hug but I have that aspirin masque Lisa recommended on my face :-D

Tammi - this may come out wrong, just know I am in no way being facetious - Your thought on God knowing the Day of your Death. I am going to have to think on that one. Might help me out mentally if faced with that at work tonight.; August 5, 2010 at 6:49 PM
Lindsay said...: Kaytie - Thanks for that. I'm awfully glad I'm still here, too! This is definitely an interesting debate, and I love that we can do it with grace. Seriously. In a lot of circles this kind of talk would get ugly.

I think He knows when you will go, but I think it's fluid. I know that doesn't seem to line up with a lot of Christian beliefs, but I think He can change it up as He goes :D

I often wonder if being a Christian helps or hinders a healthcare professional's feelings when saving a life or losing one.; August 5, 2010 at 6:54 PM
Anonymous said...: I don't think of this as a debate really - we're just sharing our *ologies. However, now that I know AP wants me dead I won't be going to Florida anytime soon :); August 5, 2010 at 7:16 PM
Shannon said...: I just want to announce that teenage boys are IDIOTS!!!

With my migraine hangover I just got to play doctor mom on my son's friend. Apparently my son thought it would be cool to pull his friends knife out of its sheath and his friend grabbed it trying to stop it. I told him he needs to go in and get stitches but didnt think it was important....so doctor mom with the neosporin, gauze, and roll of duct tape to the rescue.

Stupid boys.; August 5, 2010 at 9:29 PM
Karen said...: Ahhh Shannon - I do not miss playing Doctor Mom on teenage boys AT ALL!! My son and his buddies were all boys - always playing in the garage with their dad's tools and machines, "making things" to hang up or put in their rooms, working on little dirt bikes and mini bikes and then their cars and at least once a week I was called on to fix some major booboo that one of the boys got that they didn't think it was cool to go to the hospital for! All of them but once I fixed, but once my son pretty much almost cut his thumb off, I literally almost passed out when I saw it, and he actually turned white as a sheet, stood up from the table where I was looking at it, and threw up in the kitchen sink! That took quite a few stitches, inside and outside!!

I agree - boys are stupid!!!; August 5, 2010 at 9:50 PM
Jeanette said...: Just dropping in to say Hello!; August 5, 2010 at 11:46 PM
Lisa said...: I'm back. Uh-oh, did we run Mulie off? I hope not. Catching up here, "And one last thing - as a human, it saddens me to think that more "right" would have been done by my passing, but that's an interesting thought. It's entirely possible, however."

It saddens me to think the same but yes, it's as possible as not. I was raised with a very different view of death than many people, I think. It's as natural as birth and as blessed of an event, as well.

"If it wasn't God's intention, Margaret wouldn't be here. When it's your time, it's your time, and no intervention is going to stop that. God knwos the day you are born, and the day you will die. :)"

Lol! You say that like it's a fact, Tammi, and it's not. It's just how you believe but no more a fact than what I believe is a fact. And I disagree. I believe God doesn't make mistakes but He most certainly allows *us to make them and prolonging life beyond what nature intended is one. He knows the day we *should die but that doesn't mean it's the day we *will die. Again, in my opinion. God knows I could be wrong. ;-); August 6, 2010 at 12:57 AM
Lisa said...: "AP, were you raised to believe that medical intervention is wrong?"

Medical intervention not found in nature and that extends or prolongs life, yep, I was. So far it's not failed any of us. Lol, watch me be the first.

"Lisa - why is the mom upset at them putting the baby up for adoption? Hope Jake has a fun and safe time. And you have a nice quiet weekend!"

Thanks! We've been busy bleaching his hair, buying new boots, etc., today. I bought stuff to finally make curtains for this office (sheets, anyone?) and some new outlets and switches I've been needing to install. I lead a wild life. The mom was adopted herself so that may play a part in her wanting her daughter to abort but she needs to get over that. She has lovely adoptive parents who love her dearly, even if they don't always get along. Even now, there's not much they'd not do for her and support her in. Even so, she does seem to resent it all so maybe that's it but she needs to buck the fuck up and recognize her daughter and the boyfriend are still making a good decision.; August 6, 2010 at 1:06 AM
Lisa said...: "This is definitely an interesting debate, and I love that we can do it with grace. Seriously. In a lot of circles this kind of talk would get ugly."

I agree, Lindsay! I love discussions like this and hearing how everyone looks at it all but you're right, it can often turn ugly fast. Just another example of what a vile blog this is, I guess. ;-)

Mine, at 16, on a dare, put a lit bottle rocket in the front pocket of his very tight jeans. Yeah. Fucktard moment, amplified. I found out days later when he stole Neosporin and gauze from my mom. He'd used all of ours and so he stole hers and she caught him. He finally confessed but wouldn't show me because it was in his groin area. We agreed I'd buy him supplies until it healed but in return, if it showed any signs of not healing, he'd tell me so I could take him to a doctor (hey, look, medical treatment!). It did finally heal up but he says he still bears many scars. I'm still buying Bio-oil and Mederma, years later. They are stupid, stupid beings at that age.; August 6, 2010 at 1:15 AM
Lisa said...: And to finish off my serial posting, hi Jeanette!; August 6, 2010 at 1:17 AM
Muliebrity said...: Run off? Nah. Running around? Yes. I had a busy day yesterday. I had been up till 2 am yesterday morning with the baby, reading the book and obsessivly checking the heat pump thingy to make sure it wasn't defrosting into my husband's office, and then we had to do a Wal-mart run for goat's milk because my goat lady is letting a couple of her heavy milkers dry up since they are going to be giving birth in a few weeks, and then I had a pain management appt 65 freakin miles away late afternoon yesterday. By the time I got home, I had to get the laundry off the line and I was ready to pass out.; August 6, 2010 at 9:03 AM
Anonymous said...: Waving to Mulie.

I can totally see my Dan blowing his crotch up with fireworks...; August 6, 2010 at 9:47 AM
Tammi said...: "He knows the day we *should die but that doesn't mean it's the day we *will die."

Well, I could say the same...you say it like it's fact as well. :)

I do believe the Bible to be fact, and it says that, sooooo lol

It's all in what you believe. And I have gone way past the slamming my fist down and it's "my way or the highway".

That gets you no where, execept for a lot of irritated people who feel pushed.; August 6, 2010 at 10:24 AM
Tammi said...: So *far, knock on wood, my boys haven't done anything stupid. Not saying tomorrow they won't saw an appendage off, but thank goodness nothing yet! :)

I don't get the adoption thing either. The only thing that does come to mind, is she is worried the girl will change her mind at the last minute, which happens all the time. Then mommy becomes grandma taking care of new baby. Who knows.; August 6, 2010 at 10:31 AM
Shannon said...: Morning ladies....sorry for my absence yesterday stupid migraines.

Mulie that was a busy day....how are you not sleeping the day away today :)

Wish I could jump in more with this whole God/medicine thing but seeings as how I dont believe in God it makes it a little trickier LOL
A question about it that I do have though is what about these parents and such that are prosecuted in the deaths of their children because their religious beliefs dictate prayer and the will of God not medical intervention. Should they be charged with any kind of a crime?; August 6, 2010 at 11:25 AM
Lisa said...: Good morning-ish, everyone! Anyone doing anything exciting today? Once I get Jake off, I'm going to crank the music up and clean...first time trying my new mop out. I'm sort of nervous but excited.

"Well, I could say the same...you say it like it's fact as well. :)"

I do not.
Do I? Ugh. I surely don't believe it to be and try to make keep it clarified that it's fact only for me. It's a fact I believe it but in no way does that make it a true. We have no way of knowing what's true or not.

*wonders if I should tackle the whole "Bible being true comment*; August 6, 2010 at 11:31 AM
Robin in Montana said...: <----wonders if I should go to the store and buy some Advil right now.; August 6, 2010 at 11:33 AM
Lisa said...: Lord, Mulie, you did have a long day. How's Muliette doing?

"A question about it that I do have though is what about these parents and such that are prosecuted in the deaths of their children because their religious beliefs dictate prayer and the will of God not medical intervention. Should they be charged with any kind of a crime?"

Absolutely not, not if they can logically explain those beliefs and can show evidence of living a lifestyle in accordance with those beliefs in other areas.; August 6, 2010 at 11:36 AM
Lisa said...: "<----wonders if I should go to the store and buy some Advil right now."

I vote you just go with vodka. Can you pick me up some rum, too, please? And hi!; August 6, 2010 at 11:37 AM
Robin in Montana said...: WEll, of course I was going to get some vodka, too. How did you think I was going to swallow the Advil?

what if one parent believes a certain way (no blood transfusions, let's say) and one another?; August 6, 2010 at 11:41 AM
Lisa said...: Oh, I'm an idiot...of course you can't swallow the Advil dry. Duh.

"what if one parent believes a certain way (no blood transfusions, let's say) and one another?"

Honestly, I have no idea. I think that would be an awful position to be in but I have no clue how best to handle that. I suppose I'd want to hear what the kid has to say about it all, you know? Take that into consideration...I just don't know.; August 6, 2010 at 11:48 AM
Tammi said...: So not in the mood for the religous battle...but I will take some Sweet Tea Vodka and it's 9 a.m. It's 5 o' clock somewhere, right? lol

I will say on one parent believing no intervention and one believing? I highly doubt they would marry to begin with. Most people with that high of convictions are going to marry something within their church or same exact values.; August 6, 2010 at 11:54 AM
Robin in Montana said...: Well, I'm in that situation should one of my kids be facing that in a medical situation - Travis and I have vastly different beliefs at this point.

Remind me again what you mix your sweet tea vodka with? I've only had it with Pepsi, water, and a squeeze of lemon.; August 6, 2010 at 12:00 PM
Karen said...: I just finished reading My Sister's Keeper last night - anyone else read that? Really good story - and interesting topic to go with this medical intervention or not subject!!

I'm waiting for a call to tell me if my applicaiton was approved at the apartment I liked... and I'm trying to keep busy - but also feeling like I have some bug or virus or something, tummy troubles and a rotten headache! Yuck!

Hi Robin!! and Tammi! and Lisa! and Mulie!! and everyone else too ( oh and - Hi Shannon!!); August 6, 2010 at 12:30 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Karen - I loved that book. Kind of hated the ending. Have you seen the movie? Not the same as the book, but good.

I hope you get your apt! And I hope you don't have a bug!

Last weekend on one of our hikes I came around a corner to see Katie drinking water out of the edge of a stream across a meadow, kind of stillish water, and immediately I was just *positive she would get giardia and I freaked *all out. I guess it can take up to 3 weeks to show up, but so far, so good.; August 6, 2010 at 12:35 PM
Lisa said...: Aww, Tammi, I'm not about to battle anyone about religion. There's nothing to battle about but it's interesting to discuss and even challenge a little bit about, if you're careful. And I think we can all agree on sweet tea vodka. Let's just get a keg! Robin, I love it mixed with limeade or actual tea. If you mix it with tea, you could get in trouble really, really fast since there's no taste of alcohol to it at all, imo.

Karen, I read that...it was good and very interesting in the subject matter, I thought. I really disliked the mother. I mean *intensely. And I hope you feel better...stomach crap is no good. I am excited and nervous for you about the new place - let us know when you hear!; August 6, 2010 at 12:36 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Trouble with sweet tea vodka? That bitch will give you a headache like no other. Or so I've heard.; August 6, 2010 at 12:38 PM
Karen said...: I did not see the movie but I didn't like the ending either.... I like to read the book first then the movie, so will have to try to find it and watch it!

Ewww drinking water out of a still stream? I'd freak the heck out too!!! My cousin's son and my DIL all have the same type of symptoms as I do... and I have headaches occassionally but then when I'm sick I have what I call a "sick" headache, where it is just different from my normal everyday headaches, and thats what I have now, a kinda sick headache!! I hope it goes fast - cause I wanna go out tonight with my best friend since 7th grade and her brother and his wife to see an Elton John tribute band in downtown Akron!

Keeping fingers crossed for NO giardia!!; August 6, 2010 at 12:38 PM
Karen said...: I didn't like the mother either... at all! Made me angry -she's got two other kids who she all but ignores to focus on the sick one... Who plays the mother in the movie, anyone know?? I liked the dad in the book though...; August 6, 2010 at 12:40 PM
Lisa said...: Robin, about all you could do in your situation is to let a judge decide on a blood transfusion for your girls. And that purely sucks, but in the end, it would probably go in your favor until the girls were a few years older and a judge more inclined to do as they desired over you and Travis.; August 6, 2010 at 12:41 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Cameron Diaz plays the mom in the movie.

You might like some other Jodi Picoult books, Karen. "Change of Heart" talks about (heh, funny, given the current conversation here) a mother facing a heart transplant for her daughter, and the heart is coming from a man in prison on death row for killing her older daughter and husband. "Nineteen Minutes" story of a high school shooting. "The Pact" - two families with kids who grew up side by side, relationship, suicide pact.

I love most of her books.; August 6, 2010 at 12:48 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Lisa - I know you are right, and I pray i never have to deal with that situation.; August 6, 2010 at 12:48 PM
Lisa said...: I like her books, too. I think you're the one who got me started on them, in fact. And I pray you never have to deal with it either, but at least maybe you can find some comfort in knowing you'll probably get a decision in your favor.; August 6, 2010 at 12:50 PM
Karen said...: How would a judge be asked to decide such a thing if it were an emergency - such as an accident or some sudden trauma? (Robin hopefully you will never have to find out the answer to these questions!!!) What do your girls think of it now - do they even understand what their dad believes and what their mom believes regarding blood? Do you think that they are mature enough to even discuss it with them yet?

I am going to have to find another of her books Robin, I really liked the way she writes!; August 6, 2010 at 12:52 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Yes, Karen, there are court cases where JW parents have refused blood for emergency treatment of kids, where even the kids have been old enough to state wishes and it's been taken to court for a judge to order one way or the other. Without disrespecting anyone's beliefs, I can only imagine how horrible it would be to have a court order against something you truly believe in.; August 6, 2010 at 12:54 PM
Karen said...: My best friend since 7th grade is a JW and when we were younger, she told me if we were ever in an accident together and she needed blood that I should tell them that she was JW and didn't want it. I told her (at that time) that I wouldn't let her die, and if she needed blood I would tell them to give it to her. She said she would never speak to me again. I said thats ok, at least you would be alive! Now that I'm older, I would respect her belief and would let them know that she is JW and didn't want blood.... Although that would be hard, I think if thats what she wants for herself, I couldn't lie. But for a child... my own child... Yikes!! I can't imagine how horrible that would be either Robin!; August 6, 2010 at 12:57 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Is she still your friend, Karen?; August 6, 2010 at 12:58 PM
Karen said...: Yep! We have been friends for 35 years!! She actually emailed today to see if I want to go out with her and her brother and his wife to hear the Elton John tribute band! If I feel better, I'm gonna go!; August 6, 2010 at 1:00 PM
Robin in Montana said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; August 6, 2010 at 1:02 PM
Robin in Montana said...: I deleted, Karen, and if I offended you at all, please know that was not my intent and I sincerely apologize to you.; August 6, 2010 at 1:08 PM
Tammi said...: I mix the Sweet Tea with lemonade, fresh squeeze of lemon, and I might or might not top it with club soda. I get hammered pretty quickly on these. LOL

I saw My Sisters Keeper..didn't read the book, but it was pretty predictable. Cameron Diaz sucked. They needed a different mom, IMO.

Robin..I just read that book. It was basically Green Mile with a different title! LOL Again, I knew how it was going to end...and it did. :); August 6, 2010 at 1:13 PM
Karen said...: that didn't sound at all bitchy Robin, and you have more than a right to be frustrated! She doesn't go to meetings hardly ever, and she married a Baptist who also doesn't go to church ever, but he does celebrate holidays and she doesn't. But they've made it work for them for 10 years ... She sorta picks and chooses what she believes as a JW sorta - which is weird to me - she believes in the 144,000 and she believes you shouldn't take blood, and she doesn't celebrate holidays - but she drinks on occassion, and she is still my friend, although she wasn't for a few years after she found out that I was a lesbian, but that wasn't because of her religion, it was because I didn't tell her about it first... But we are all good now - and I respect her wishes on that - although I also hope I'm never in a situation with her where she is hurt bad enough to need blood. She said her husband had a hard time with that too - and they decided not to have kids, partly because she would have wanted to raise them without holidays and her husband said he didn't agree.

I'm sorry you are having such a hard time about all of the religious stuff.... it shouldn't have to be so hard on you... and I'm sorry that it is!; August 6, 2010 at 1:16 PM
Karen said...: NOOOO offense taken at all Robin - you had no reason to delete it - and I had already read it before you deleted it, and have already answered you - please don't feel the need to edit what you are thinking for my benefit! Really! I have a ton of respect for you Robin!!; August 6, 2010 at 1:17 PM
Tammi said...: Honestly if I was a JW, I would tell no one about our religion... I would want to be one of the 144,000! LOL; August 6, 2010 at 1:18 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Karen -- whew! I was worried that came out wrong. I think I sort of picked and chose for a lot of years and now I just feel kind of afloat. And he to the drinking - almost without exception (my dad is an exception) almost every JW I know could drink anyone else under the table all day long. They just keep it behind closed doors. :-D; August 6, 2010 at 1:19 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Tammi -- Hee. It doesn't work that way, though. They number, IIRC, something close to 8 million. The 144,000 go to heaven and it's not just a matter of being a member.; August 6, 2010 at 1:20 PM
Tammi said...: Mojitoooooo......going to lunch with the girls at this great Mexican place, and they have the BEST Mojitos! I will think of you all! Maybe I can drunk dial a couple of you! hahahaha Just kidding, I have to drive....dangnabit!; August 6, 2010 at 1:21 PM
Robin in Montana said...: If you talk to your friend about me, tell me what she has to say! lol. I would guess, having a 'worldly husband' she will get a lot of what I say, even if she doesn't feel comfortable going along with it at all. That fear of agreeing with an unbeliever is drilled deep.; August 6, 2010 at 1:21 PM
Tammi said...: So if only 144,000 go to Heaven...where do the rest go?; August 6, 2010 at 1:22 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Live forever on earth.; August 6, 2010 at 1:24 PM
Tammi said...: Oh. Ok. Drinking mojitos I hope...:); August 6, 2010 at 1:25 PM
Robin in Montana said...: LOL. Or whatever is currently in style. I want to like mojitos, but ... I don't know. The mint throws me.; August 6, 2010 at 1:25 PM
Tammi said...: I don't make mine scary minty....and this place we are going to, they put cucumber in them. Cucumber????? I know, but when I had that first one I was hooked!; August 6, 2010 at 1:26 PM
PJ said...: Tammi - just don't drunk dial while you're driving.

And no texting of any kind while you're driving.; August 6, 2010 at 1:29 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Last night we took Grayce out to eat and I ordered a vodka collins. The girl, who was like 11, said, "vodka tall"? Uh, no, *colllins. She says okay and off she goes. Consults with the 'bartender' who was also 11, and comes back to the table and says, what did you want to mix your vodka with. I sigh, and say, cranberry, please.; August 6, 2010 at 1:29 PM
PJ said...: I guess they don't teach collins drinks until high school, Robin.; August 6, 2010 at 1:31 PM
Tammi said...: CK oh absolutely not. I barely use my phone in the car as it is. I don't want a ticket.

They didn't know what Collins mix was??? Geez....; August 6, 2010 at 1:32 PM
Robin in Montana said...: CK - Maybe. Seems wrong, but this school system is *really behind. ::nod::; August 6, 2010 at 1:32 PM
Tammi said...: I mean we learn our mixers in K for goodness sakes! Shane can whip up a mean cocktail! ahahahaha; August 6, 2010 at 1:33 PM
Shannon said...: I think that bartending should be a required class in HS.....that way they leave with a very very useful skill :); August 6, 2010 at 1:33 PM
Robin in Montana said...: She was working the black eyeliner on the inner eyelid rim, so maybe she's just really focusing on trashy makeup instead of drink mixology for her upcoming sophomore year.; August 6, 2010 at 1:34 PM
Karen said...: I've never had a mojito either, but they sound good - I like mint, although alot of mint gives me heartburn! I like cucumber and lemon slices in water... so I can imagine that they would give another drink a good taste!

We are still undecided about going to see Elton John tribute band tonight, but if I do - and have a chance, I will tell her about your situation and see what she says. She will probably understand where you are coming from, and she has, over her 10 years of marriage, gone with him to his parents/family Christmas celebrations and stuff, because she didnt want to stay home and have them talk about her all day. She just does what she feels, but takes the basic beliefs of the JW to heart... But Im sure she would see your point in all of the issues that you have now Robin!! She is a really good, fun person! She would have to be to put up with me and my wreck of a life over the last 35 years or so!!! LOL And I think even now she is slightly regretting not having kids... which makes me sad for her! She has 2 brothers and a sister, and none of them are JW any more... and all married non JWs. I have a good friend that I worked with in NY - she is also JW - strict and by the book and she just married a guy from DR that is JW also - they are such a sweet sweet couple... and they look like movie stars together!!

I am going to nap now - to hopefully feel better from this nasty headache and stomach bug I feel like I have, and hope to feel good enough that if the plans come through, I will get to go out tonight with my friend and her brother! We haven't done that in like 20 years... all of us together! I used to have alittle crush on her brother in 8th grade! I'm excited! Hopefully I will nap til the new apartment calls and tells me Im approved!! That will probably make me feel lots better!

Will check in later!; August 6, 2010 at 1:34 PM
PJ said...: Robin,
NCLB, after all, doesn't include the myriad of drink selections.; August 6, 2010 at 1:34 PM
PJ said...: In a perfect world, it could stand for No Cocktail Left Behind.; August 6, 2010 at 1:37 PM
Tammi said...: Shannon...absolutely! LOL

Eye liner in the rim....that screams take me home and, well, you know. lol

Karen..I hope your headache gets better so you can go!

And with that, I am off...need to shower and shine. I might even shave...that's an event! LOL

Bye guys...have a great afternoon!; August 6, 2010 at 1:38 PM
Robin in Montana said...: No cocktail should ever be left behind. That is sad and wrong.; August 6, 2010 at 1:46 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Karen - That's all so very interesting. I will say that there are JW's out there who do it by the book and they are happy. It wasn't for me, and the people I knew, and know, seem to do it out of ... I dont't know, don't have the words. But they seem to pull their happiness from being judgemental, not because of what they are personally doing, and that's where I ended up having the proble. Well, that's not the only place, but it's a sticking point. ;-D I'd love to hear what your friend has to say if you end up bringing it up at all.; August 6, 2010 at 1:48 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: Morning all.

<--- has never had sweet tea vodka, but LOVES mojitos.

Robin, that’s a truly difficult situation, and I hope that it is one you are able to avoid.

Lisa, if you don’t mind me asking, what’s your stance on birth control? On the one hand, it would seem to fit with “quality of life” if the person doesn’t want children. On the other hand, if God deems that you should have children, then it would affect “quantity of life” for the potential person, no? Not trying to challenge you (well, not in a bad way); I’m just truly interested in your thoughts on this, particularly from what I know about your fiscally conservative beliefs.
(Hopes that didn’t come off as snarky, because that wasn’t my intent).; August 6, 2010 at 1:49 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Pssst, BD. You should ask Tammi and AP to discuss surrogacy. Just sayin'...

<---troublemaker; August 6, 2010 at 1:51 PM
Shannon said...: Robin what about artificial insemination?

I dont like Robin to be the only troublemaker :); August 6, 2010 at 1:55 PM
Robin in Montana said...: I appreciate the solidarity, Shannon. :nod:; August 6, 2010 at 1:58 PM
PJ said...: Here in spirit.; August 6, 2010 at 2:05 PM
Shannon said...: Speaking of birth control I need to go get my shot today and I have to remember to call my gyn to find out if I can get an IUD at my next appt.

BD for myself babies would be a detriment to my desired lifestyle at this point in my life. LOL I am so done having babies...I just like to borrow them now.; August 6, 2010 at 2:06 PM
twirldawg said...: I've been lurking. I have nothing to add to the conversation re religion and medical intervention.
I'm of the mind that I believe my way, you believe your way and we aren't going to change each others minds.

I'd love to have another child, but we aren't in the right place for that.; August 6, 2010 at 2:15 PM
Robin in Montana said...: Jill - why aren't you in the right place? You don't have enough buckets for kids' heads? :-D; August 6, 2010 at 2:21 PM
twirldawg said...: lol, yes, low on buckets. . .and money.; August 6, 2010 at 2:33 PM
Erin said...: Jill- it is very, very important to have the right things in the right place to make a baby.

Oh wait....

:) I thought of you yesterday. Janey was playing on the computer with a bucket on her head! Also Margene is the Aunt in Ramona and Beezus. I am in the movie theater thinking " I have to tell Jill". I miss our sister wife :(; August 6, 2010 at 2:39 PM
Erin said...: What about artificial insemination of a surrogate?; August 6, 2010 at 2:39 PM
Robin in Montana said...: EL - Isn't that how that all works? Turkey basters and all?; August 6, 2010 at 2:47 PM
Erin said...: Well, maybe I mean sperm donor artifically inseminating donor eggs and placed into a surrogate.; August 6, 2010 at 3:43 PM
Tammi said...: Popping in for a second.

Turkey basters is for Traditional Surros where they use their egg and the guys sperm. I was a Gestational Surro where it was their sperm and egg...none of my "stuff". So we did IVF.

It was truly an awesome experience. Getting to hand over not one but TWO babies, (yes, twins) and it be a boy and girl at that! It was very hard at the same time, being preggo with twins is no walk in the park especially at 40...my uh, girlish figure took a beating! LOL And yes, I got paid...a lot. I know you all are wondering. :)

And FTR I know this is a subject Lisa won't discuss, because she is very against it, which is her choice. :) So, I won't go any further out of respect for her.

Ok, off to lunch and mojitos!; August 6, 2010 at 3:47 PM
Erin said...: My friend was a surrogate for her sister who was born without a uterus. She carried triplets to term, and gave birth naturally right before I had Julian. It still gives me goosebumps.; August 6, 2010 at 3:55 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: BD for myself babies would be a detriment to my desired lifestyle at this point in my life. LOL I am so done having babies...I just like to borrow them now.

Shannon, I totally dig that viewpoint. I can see, when my kids are in high school, not wanting to go back to diapers. At some point you have to be you again.; August 6, 2010 at 4:33 PM
Karen said...: Wow Erin how cool! Triplets!! I had always thought if my kids needed a surrogate for whatever reason I would do that for them, but apparently they are very fertile and have no troubles on their own... but I think with the right circumstances and the right people - surrogacy could be a wonderful gift!; August 6, 2010 at 4:36 PM
PJ said...: Has anyone heard if SIF's implantation has survived?; August 6, 2010 at 5:07 PM
Lisa said...: "Without disrespecting anyone's beliefs, I can only imagine how horrible it would be to have a court order against something you truly believe in."

*sighs* It sucks. My dad, when finally taken (against his wishes) to the hospital by EMTs was pretty much a mess. I'll try not to be too long winded but long story short, since he'd had any so-called medical intervention and wasn't the cleanest thing ever, hospital staff deemed it probable elderly abuse and refused to let us be with him. Instead, we got to be with cops and social workers. His mind was clear, he was stating firmly he did not want to be treated and they determined a man in his condition couldn't possibly make rational decisions. They got an emergency order and 3 hours later were operating on him. That was the first time in my life I think I could have honestly hurt someone and enjoyed it, I was so, so angry and hurt for him. The next day, they nearly killed him with a couple of Demerol even though we had asked that he not be given anything that strong. It didn't matter because of the court order. The finally let us see him later that day, his 76th birthday, because they didn't think he'd make it through the night. He did, though, and we finally found a wonderful Filipino doctor who listened to us and actually agreed with our beliefs to a great extent. She went to talk to him, determined his mind was beyond fine and then went in front of the judge for us all and got things resolved. We were allowed to stop everything and take him back home but not before they'd just walked all over all of our beliefs, told us we were stupid, irresponsible and one doctor told us that if he died, it would be our fault. It was a nightmare and something I'd not wish on anyone but the people who did it to us. I hope they all suffer and I hope no one *ever* had to go through it.; August 6, 2010 at 5:20 PM
Lisa said...: "And FTR I know this is a subject Lisa won't discuss, because she is very against it, which is her choice. :) So, I won't go any further out of respect for her."

Oh, feel free. *Here? I'm all about discussing it. Not only do I think it's a slap in the face to God, I consider it to be prostitution if money changes hands. So, there you go.

*gives a chirpy smile and figures I need to make that liquor store run now*; August 6, 2010 at 5:24 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: Lisa, I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

I must admit that I come at this from a very different perspective than you. Growing up, we were raised with an attitude of "thank God we have vaccinations/antibiotics/proper medical care, because you would be dead/incapacitated etc., if not for that." My parents are still very much of that mindset, and while I very much respect the medical field and make use of it, I am also willing to try natural healing and alternative methods, which my family totally dismisses. So I am very interested in your take on it, although it's not necessarily what I would do in a given situation, if that makes any sense.; August 6, 2010 at 5:26 PM
Lisa said...: "Lisa, if you don’t mind me asking, what’s your stance on birth control? On the one hand, it would seem to fit with “quality of life” if the person doesn’t want children. On the other hand, if God deems that you should have children, then it would affect “quantity of life” for the potential person, no?"

Honestly, this is one of those areas I struggle with some. Since I don't believe life begins at conception, I'm really not adverse to birth control. At the same time, I understand that what the ultimate goal is is to prevent life from occurring, so yeah...it's a hard one for me. Sorry, that's maybe not the best answer ever but it's the best I've got. :-)

"Not trying to challenge you (well, not in a bad way); I’m just truly interested in your thoughts on this, particularly from what I know about your fiscally conservative beliefs.
(Hopes that didn’t come off as snarky, because that wasn’t my intent)."

Not at all, it was fine and please don't worry! I don't offend easily, I swear, and that's how we all learn from each other and about different beliefs - by asking questions. I just wish I had more concrete ones in my own head about some things, you know?; August 6, 2010 at 5:29 PM
Lisa said...: BD, I think how you look at it all...keeping an open mind and then choosing what you feel is best after considering all options, even if it means going with how you were raised, is the best anyone can do for themselves or their family.; August 6, 2010 at 5:32 PM
Karen said...: Oh Lisa - that story is heartbreaking! I totally understand your anger! Did your dad live much longer after he was allowed back home? I'm glad you were able to bring him home, at least... but that really does just break my heart!; August 6, 2010 at 5:32 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: I'll jump into the surrogacy conversation.

I used to be totally anti-surrogacy. No holds barred. And I would personally NOT use a surrogate, mainly because I wouldn't trust anyone else with my fetus (not a slam against you Tammi...I just wouldn't necessarily feel that anyone could take care of my baby the way I could). But. I understand now why some people do it. For instance, my best friend is descended from Holocaust survivors (in fact, her mom was born at Auschwitz after it was liberated, because her parents had nowhere to go). If she or her brother don't have children, their whole family line is gone. Just...gone. I can understand why, if she could not carry a baby, she would go that route. Incidentally, she is single and shows no signs of infertility or even wanting to have a baby, so there's no reason to think she'd go down that road. It was just an example from someone I know.; August 6, 2010 at 5:32 PM
Lisa said...: Karen, he lived 3 weeks after we brought him home and they were a wonderful 3 weeks. We had so much fun with him, so much laughter and so many good talks, that it's time I treasure to no end. He lived nearly 15 years with malignant cancer and in the end, it was in every organ, including his skin, but his heart. He just let nature take over, didn't stress over it, took a lot of flaxseed oil and shark cartilage daily and ate well, ate carefully. Even just a couple of months before he died, he was up in a tree with a chainsaw, trimming. Except for that time in the hospital, he never took anything stronger than Advil and Tylenol and while he had a bit of discomfort still, it wasn't pain. More like a restlessness, he said. He had a good, long life and a good ending, I think because he didn't fight it. We've seen this happen over and over in our family and others who believe as we do, so I'll stick with it. But everyone has to do what they think is best. I can only speak for myself, you know?; August 6, 2010 at 5:40 PM
Karen said...: I'm glad he lived a while longer and that you were able to have that time with him - sometimes there is nothing that medicine can do for a person- and if they do take things, it reduces the quality of the life that they have left! I'm so glad you had some good quality of time with your dad after the fiasco with the hospital!! I am sure that means alot to you!!; August 6, 2010 at 5:52 PM
Lisa said...: BD, I see what you're saying about your friend but shoot, I'm not sure to say this without sounding awful...although I guess I've already crossed that line around here today *grins*...so, isn't that sort of arrogant? I mean, in the end, to think your family is so special that it needs to continue on using artificial methods instead of adopting a child who is already here and who desperately needs loving parents is fairly egotistical, isn't it? Or maybe I just look at things oddly...who knows?; August 6, 2010 at 9:01 PM
Shannon said...: Hey just got home from running amok all day.

As for SIF, sadly the implantation did not stick.

With surrogates, I am torn because I have thought about doing it myself but I know I would get attached and not be able to easily had the baby over.; August 6, 2010 at 9:09 PM
PJ said...: Thanks Shannon for the update on SIF. She must be very sad.; August 6, 2010 at 9:39 PM
Shannon said...: She is very upset by it. I am pretty sure she will be trying again. It is just really sad in my mind that someone so young has such a horrible disease that just getting pregnant the old fashion way would be very hard.; August 6, 2010 at 9:41 PM
Josh and Rya said...: Hey. Poppin' in to say hi, going to go read about today.

Hi.; August 6, 2010 at 9:52 PM
Karen said...: Still not feeling well - thought I'd pop in and see if anything was going on! Hi Josh and Rya!! Long time no see!; August 6, 2010 at 10:01 PM
Josh and Rya said...: Hi Karen. I'll admit I've been mostly lurking. Busy summer.; August 6, 2010 at 10:06 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: Lisa, I don’t necessarily disagree with you; surrogacy (and IVF) are not for me, and I can say with confidence that they never would have been and they never would be. Let me be clear; she’d like kids but she’s not dating and they aren’t even on her radar right now, and she’s never mentioned surrogacy or IVF for herself. I can just see how she might feel that this was important. There’s a lot of other stuff going on there, including survivor guilt from her parents (and grandparents, when they were alive) although I don’t know that I can explain that all intelligently. It’s not my story so I can only explain what I know. So I also think she feels a lot of pressure to have children, and I can see how that would play into any decision she made.

Me, I’ve got more relatives than I need or want; I need to get rid of some, never mind perpetuate my gene pool. :); August 6, 2010 at 10:25 PM
Anonymous said...: AP - I'm so sorry your family had to go through that. Your experience is why it's SO important at any age to have a living will.

On surrogates, IVF, etc. I had EXTREME endometriosis. When I was 18 I was told I might as well have a hyster because there was no way I'd ever be able to have children. I wasn't willing to have such a radical surgery so every few years I had a laproscopy to clean out the adhesions. Dan knew my history before we got married and we were prepared not to have children. However, we decided in November 2002 to start *trying and I got pregnant that month. My best friend from high school had a similar situation and she just had her third child last summer.; August 6, 2010 at 10:41 PM
Karen said...: I think that if I had been unable to have kids I would have adopted... rather than go for IVF cause like Lisa says, there are so many children that need a home and a family - If I was unable to have my own for whatever reason, I would have loved to give an already born child the family that they all deserve! But thats just me and my choice, if someone I knew was going to do IVF for whatever reason I dont think it would bother me at all... if they were doing it for the right reasons!; August 6, 2010 at 10:44 PM
Erin said...: I don't agree with surrogates being paid. It has to be the ultimate thing to hang over someones head, the promise of a baby. i also think that people who use surrogates to avoid pregnancy and all it's *perks, are entirely tooo selfish to even deserve a baby. I would be a surrogate for my sister and *maybe a few close friends.

AP- were your father's views on medicine religious or cultural? Did he believe in natural remedies as a *cure, not just as a health measure (shark cartillage, flax seed, etc)? How sad that he (and your family) had to endure that.; August 6, 2010 at 11:44 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: On surrogates, IVF, etc. I had EXTREME endometriosis. When I was 18 I was told I might as well have a hyster because there was no way I'd ever be able to have children. I wasn't willing to have such a radical surgery so every few years I had a laproscopy to clean out the adhesions. Dan knew my history before we got married and we were prepared not to have children. However, we decided in November 2002 to start *trying and I got pregnant that month. My best friend from high school had a similar situation and she just had her third child last summer.

Margaret, I have the same issue (endometriosis), and was told the same thing (hysterectomy) at age 25. I didn't go forward because I felt I was too young. I've had several laparoscopies as well, the last one this past January (were you posting with us then?). I know precisely where you are coming from.

Still, even though I was not expecting to have children biologically, I wouldn't have done IVF or surrogacy. I just got lucky, I guess.; August 7, 2010 at 12:14 AM
Lisa said...: Blah. It's 4:30am. Had a way long late night nap then got hit with a little bout of stomach trouble, probably due to the hominy fried in butter I had for dinner. I'm feeling better now but I'm up and more awake than not. Jake is off at this with some friends: http://animefestivalorlando.com/ and probably won't be back until Monday afternoon. Lol, I thought about Mulie's husband when he told me where he was going. It feels good to be alone. :-); August 7, 2010 at 4:48 AM
Lisa said...: "AP- were your father's views on medicine religious or cultural? Did he believe in natural remedies as a *cure, not just as a health measure (shark cartillage, flax seed, etc)? How sad that he (and your family) had to endure that."

Hmmm...I think religion and culture are sort of all mixed up together for us, Erin. He knew the stuff he took probably wouldn't cure him. He was out to have the best quality of life he could for as long as he could, using only what nature provided. He felt very, very strongly that if he did that, nature would protect him on this journey and who knows what really made it as easy, for lack of a better term since it wasn't really easy to be that sick, as it was for him? Nature and/or God? Or the power of his own mind since he had *so much faith that what he had done was right and he had our support? Or maybe it's all one and the same, intertwined...who knows?; August 7, 2010 at 5:05 AM
Erin said...: That is an admirable trait to not only believe in something so strongly, but to live by what you believe in. That is one thing I often find difficult in extreme religious people. They are so set on the "rules" (for lack of a better word) that they lose sight of the whole principle. As well, they are not truly living what they believe. More like living how they feel they are *suppossed to live. Does that make sense? I have typed it out a few times, but it still is not coming out right. Gah.; August 7, 2010 at 11:12 AM
twirldawg said...: Erin I saw your message yesterday. I miss our sister wife too.
How was the movie? I loved the books.

So TLC is airing a new show called Sister Wives. It's about a polygamist's search for a 4th wife.; August 7, 2010 at 11:18 AM
Muliebrity said...: I have attempted several posts and blogger hates me.; August 7, 2010 at 11:46 AM
Tammi said...: Good Morning!

How is everyone today? I am a lazy butt and plan on doing nothing. Busy day yesterday, ending with a great baseball game! We won...yay!

And...

Surrogacy wasn't something I took lightly. I agree with people saying they could never use a surrogate, because well, I don't know if I could either! It takes a lot of faith in a person and my friend G had it in me. She knew I would protect that baby with all my heart. I think I was more protective over those babies then my own! In the way, lets say you have a child over to play...I am far more worried about them then my own. If they are too get hurt or something I am devastated. I don't want to give the parents any kind of bad phone call..that's how I was with the twins.
I never felt any attatchment to them, no more then say my friends kids, you are protective and would be a mama bear for them, but they aren't yours. It was strange as soon as they were born and they were handed over, it was like it never happened. I was too happy for G&L. Too see someone who has struggled for 10+ yrs to get pregnant, have numerous IVF and adoptions go through...get their babies...well, it's awesome.
Yes, I did get paid. It's a huge, huge commitment and ordeal. Shots, WITH BIG NEEDLES for 4 mos.Daily. Double the office visits, and lots of out of town visits as well. I was put on bed rest towards the end. Never did that before. It turns your life upside down..which is to be expected. But the surro isn't the only going through it, your whole family is. That is why I had to have complete support before even starting the process. So sure, you get paid, but it's not like we are retired and living in the Bahamas.
So either you are for it or against, I don't care about that. And people can have their opinion, but unless they have truly gone through the process they will never know. 10 yrs ago if someone said, "you will be a surrogate" I would have said, "no way!"

And one last thing..oh Lisa. :) You say it's a slap in God's face. Well, you really can't pick and chose what you think "slaps him in the face." No where in the Bible does it say Surrogacy is a sin or frowned upon. But oh does it talk about homosexuality. So who is slapping now?

Now on that, don't everyone go all homophobe on me. I am making a point...if someone is going to use God as their reason...I will use Him right back. Oh snap. :); August 7, 2010 at 11:49 AM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: Morning all:
Um, actually, if we want to get Biblical about it, the Bible DOES talk about surrogacy. It supports surrogacy (the story of Hagar and Ismael and God promising that a great nation will come of his descendants; the story of Jacob taking his wives’ handmaids, Bilhah and Zilpah, when his wives were unable to bear children, etc.).
My objections to surrogacy and IVF aren’t religious. Simply put, it kind of freaks me out to pump someone so full of hormones. I don’t think the processes have been around long enough to see what will happen to these women (or hell, the children) 40-50 years down the line. How do we know they won’t be more prone to cancer, or genetic mutations, etc.? Those are just my personal feelings. I know that we could say those things about many medical interventions and procedures, but there’s a difference, to me at least, in doing something that is life enhancing or pain relieving and something that is elective (I feel the same way about, say, Botox).

That doesn’t mean I don’t love and respect people who feel differently or go through the procedures. A few good friends of mine HAVE had IVF, and have children, and I’m glad they are happy. If they had asked me what they should do to have children, I’d have said “adopt” rather than recommended IVF. But they didn’t ask, and that’s that.; August 7, 2010 at 12:02 PM
Tammi said...: Oh I know it's there...but like I said, it isn't a sin. :)

And you are right..there could be reprocussions. That's a chance you take. But we could say that about a lot of things we do.

Don't be dissing Botox. :)

I will tell you why people do go the IVF route vs adoptions. People want a genetic tie..they just do. That bloodline. Call it selfish, but it's a fact. Now my friends wanted to adopt, but they wanted an open adoption should something ever happen to the baby and they needed lineage, etc. Twice..the mom decided to keep the baby at the very end...and the last time, the person opted out right away. After the third time, they said forget it. They had gotten totally attached twice and then had the rug pulled out from under them.

The biggest problem I think in understanding the whole process, is unless you truly have experienced fertility issues, you will never get it. Shoot, if Randy looks at me wrong I get pregnant. I can't imagine the deep yearning to have a baby...if I want one, I just do it.; August 7, 2010 at 12:17 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: No dissing Botox here...it just isn't for me.

The genetic tie...that's what I was saying about my friend, and why she might choose surrogacy. I don't feel that way, but I never thought I'd have children, so that might have been a "learned behavior" if you will, on my part.

Having the rug pulled out from under us is one of the major reasons (though not the only reason) my husband does not want to go through the adoption process, much as I would love to adopt.; August 7, 2010 at 12:23 PM
Jennifer-Lynn said...: I know it wasn't a sin (surrogacy); if you want to look at it a certain way, the Bible can be said to promote surrogacy as a way of being fruitful and multiplying.; August 7, 2010 at 12:25 PM
Lisa said...: 'Morning, all. Well, it's afternoon, but whatever. :-P

"You say it's a slap in God's face. Well, you really can't pick and chose what you think "slaps him in the face."

I don't. I simply beleive he makes no mistakes so if a couple can't have biological children naturally, it's because He didn't intend them to.
"No where in the Bible does it say Surrogacy is a sin or frowned upon.

I never said it did, partly because it doesn't and partly because if I'm going to quote information out of a book, I'll pick a book proven to be factual.

"But oh does it talk about homosexuality. So who is slapping now?"

Um, still just you since you need to get a better understanding of your Bible instead of just reading the words and assuming.

"Now on that, don't everyone go all homophobe on me. I am making a point...if someone is going to use God as their reason...I will use Him right back. Oh snap. :)"

Lol, stop being a dumbass, Tammi.
It's a good thing I've chosen to focus on your positive points these days, you know that?; August 7, 2010 at 12:56 PM
Tammi said...: It's a good thing I've chosen to focus on your positive points these days, you know that?

I guess that goes both ways. :)

Look, I know you are against it, that is fine. But I hate when people spew God to make a point, when in their own lives (and we all do this, don't get me wrong) they are doing something as equal to a sin..or that slap in the face.

And with that, I am gone. The pool is calling my name, then dinner later with friends. I have been craving a good steak. And for the life of me, that is the one thing I just can't cook that great. It's hit or miss.

Have a great day!!; August 7, 2010 at 1:44 PM
Gusgirl said...: So I know I'm mostly a lurker, but I had an experience yesterday that I can not share with anyone in RL and I just need a place to get it all out and process it.

An ex-bf contacted me via facebook and asked me to call him. We had parted on good terms, so I did and he asked me to come see him because he wanted to talk to me.

So anyway, he wanted to apologise to me for treating me so horribly in our relationship (pushing me away, then coming back, repeat for about 8 yrs.)and that the reason he did is because he is gay. I wasn't that shocked at that revelation and he is still the same person he was regardless, but I'm angry because I always felt that I was the problem in our relationship and that the reson he didn't love me was because I wasn't pretty enough or skinny enough, etc. I'm angry that for all those years I doubted myself when it wasn't me at all.

And even though I'm now happily married and had gotten over him years ago, I can't stop being upset with myself for doubting myself all those years.

I am only the 3rd person he has come out to and I am really thankful that he trusts me enough to share that with me and it explains so much that went wrong. He has only admited it to himself in the last year or so and I still consider him one of the best friends I've ever had and I do know that the continued on and off stuff was just as much my fault as it was his because I kept going back.

I have rambled enough and I'm not making much sense, but if anyone as any insight into helping me process this, I would be very grateful.; August 7, 2010 at 2:48 PM
Muliebrity said...: Gusgirl, Dang! Sounds like his confession was a blessing and a curse! Were you upset with yourself BEFORE he came out or are you more intensely upset with yourself now that you know the truth?

Maybe you are a little shocked. Not because he is gay, but because things were not what they seemed. Did you tell your husband?; August 7, 2010 at 3:24 PM
Lisa said...: "Look, I know you are against it, that is fine. But I hate when people spew God to make a point, when in their own lives (and we all do this, don't get me wrong) they are doing something as equal to a sin..or that slap in the face."

Tammi, I'm not spewing God. I'm saying what I believe, I believe it firmly and I'm not doing anything sinful that I know of, except maybe drinking in excess. ;-) If you're trying to say homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible, you're 100% wrong; the Bible most certainly says no such thing. If you want to show me where you think it does, please do. Maybe I've missed something.

That said, I'm with you on the steak cooking...hit and miss, so I've given up. If you ever get the trick figured out, please share.; August 7, 2010 at 3:55 PM
Lisa said...: Gusgirl, I don't blame you for being upset...it probably feels like you wasted a lot of your life. You have a right to be angry because he sort of took part of your life from you under false pretenses. Try to focus on the good part though - you know *now that it wasn't you, that you were plenty good enough. That beats being 80 and still having it crop up from time to time in your mind, wondering what you could have changed about yourself, doesn't it?; August 7, 2010 at 4:00 PM
Jeanette said...: Popping in to ditto what Lisa said. I was thinking the same thing about when you're 80 but couldn't figure out how to put it into words. Lisa is absolutely right. I know it's hard but try to be glad that you know *now. I've dealt with the same feelings although it was a different situation...a family member made me feel that way as opposed to a boyfriend. I found out years later after his death that it was his problem and nothing at all wrong with me, but for years I thought there must be something about me that made me unlovable. Now that I know the reason he acted the way he did, I'm able to let it go and forgive him, and myself for doubting my self-worth. Give it some time and hopefully you will feel the same way.; August 7, 2010 at 4:16 PM
Gusgirl said...: I had put that relationship in the past and carried forward with the lessons it taught me and have never regretted it at all because I did a lot of growing dring that time. However, I did struggle a long time to get over the "what is wrong with me" stuff that I couldn't get him to love me. Meeting my husband who did (and does) love me exactly as I am helped me so much.

I do feel in shock and not because he told me he is gay, (in fact I use to jokingly ask him if he was) but I just can't believe that I was so hard on myself all that time thinking that I was the problem. I guess I feel bad because now I know what our relationship could have been had the truth been known back then. He was great friend inspite of everything else.

I haven't told my husband yet, but I will as soon as I get it all processed and straightened out in my head.

I'm one of those "things will happen when they are suppose to happen" people and believe that everything is timed for a specific purpose, I just am always impatient when I don't see the purpose immediately.; August 7, 2010 at 4:18 PM
Gusgirl said...: Lisa,

The bible verse most often quoted to "prove" homosexuality is a sin is Leviticus 18:22 which reads "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." KJV; August 7, 2010 at 4:25 PM